Wayne....I agree w/ your chronological perpective and you are right. Many of today's drums will be tomorrow's vintage drums. My statement was made in general as I also agree that there are some great sounding "new" drums out there, though not as many as one would hope for and curiously, not really, they carry the premium price tag. Rogers were expensive in their time.

I would like to point out 2 specific examples of my perspective though.

Let's take the time tested infamous Ludwig Supraphonic Snare Drum no longer manufacturing with COB. Why? Only the guy upstairs knows. Now I know they stopped producing this great sounding configuration in the 60's, in this configuration it is a drum that has a sound in the same class as the other greats of the time.

Just for s__ts and giggles, I recently purchased a new Supraphonic just because I wanted to see how the current sound would be. Cute little rubber gaskets on the tension rods as a marker for tuning, nylon washers that supoosedly make it easier to provide tension, nice looking finish w/ snares made in Taiwan. It's now on E-Bay being sold by me. Why? I could not get it to even sound remotely close to the following drums, Rogers DynaSonic, PowerTone 60's Radio King, CF Martin Fibes. Although, these drums all have a distinctive sound or tone, none of them sound lifeless. That drum sounded like a dud. I even went as far as to try different top and bottom heads & PureSound Snares to eliminate the dull lifeless sound eminating from that new shell. I went into a local Guitar Center just to see if I had the only bad sounding Supraphonic. It was exactly the same. I know I can get a brass shell supraphonic but that is not the point. The drum I have has be arguably called the standard......

To qualify, I have heard much better vintage Supraphonics with with the infamous Ludalloy.

Here's another example. I attach the picture of two Remo drum heads, a late 1960's Ambassador drum head (a true standard btw) and the currently produced version of the same. You can't believe the difference when placed on the same exact drum with the same tension specs. Even altering the tension to compensate does nothing.

Listen, I don't care what type of music you play or listen to, there is a deep difference in many of today's products as opposed to yesterday's. By the way, I inquired about whether Remo changed their mfg process and it turns out that they have, probably in response to Evans increase in market share and also environmental concerns. The latter I was told by an old time drum shop owner.

I am sure we can all come up with many other examples. You could conceivably try my drum head example if you have some good old ones lying around.

Yes, there is some good stuff out there granted.....but it is not as much or what it should be.

Anyway, just my thoughts for what its worth......

Hey Ploughman, I'm the first to say it.... NICE RACK!Funny Post

C'mon guys...I don't recall knocking the SOUND of vintage drums or Rogers for that matter....That is a totally different issue altogether. And of course, it stands to reason that if you take care of stuff, it lasts longer.....But be real...go look on 'the bay' and look at all the cracked 'bread and butter lugs' - just crappily designed and engineered and there is mucho other hardware from 'the day' that sucks butt just as bad. Some stuff is way more durable than others and the swivo stuff IS NOT durable PERIOD...COOL....but not durable (Thats without looking up Websters def of Durable).

Keep the sound out of this argument - I never once made any contention about the sound.

Ok Bill , lets get to this , lugs have about as much to do with swivomatic hardware as sound...we have been discussing the tom mounting system not the lugs. Bread and butter lugs were made up until 1963,they were made from drawn brass,a poor choice yes but it chromed better and everyone knows COB dynasonics hold chrome better than Ludaloy ...Now that has nothing at all to do with the tom mounting system . In Fact most all of the mounting plates survive today it is the collets that were the culprit,the early machined ones lasted longer but i have never broke a cast one simple because i do not have to use pliers to get them to work. what people fail to admit is that they took poor care of them and never cleaned the threads or in between the cuts on the threaded part,all of which leads up to build up of crud that keeps them from closing causing you to have to close them harder and harder ..

Take your car and do the same thing you will have the same results ..the truth is the 3/8ths hex rod is very very strong you can not take a 10 inch piece in your hands and bend it ,neither will you bend it through normal use,i have never seen a piece of it break..I have seen the teeth on the ratchet system of almost every other drum manufacturer wear out or break. the only thing i have ever seen break on swivomatic hardware was the collet arms and again read above to see why... mine to this day work as smooth as butter and you can tighten or loosen them with one hand..

Notice this is one of my tom holders it is 37 years old it is scratched beat up a bit but look at the collet no plier marks here and look at the nose of the collet it is not plugged up...and it still works perfectly!

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/Magwa/DSC02514Medium.jpg[/IMG]

Bill you keep saying the same stuff over and over again without backing it up!

Swivo stuff breaks. Yes thats true but doesnt everything if its not looked after?

There are lots of pieces of swivo hardware that is in good condition and it shows its durable after 50 or so years of abuse. B&B lugs were bad. They were COB and thats just bad for lugs. But we are talking about he Swivos and they work and they stand up to a bit of abuse therefor making them somewhat durable. Try backing up your points next time.

Good topic guys and thanks for keeping things on a respectible level!

I think bill_young has his mind made up and there is no changing that.

I think in general we all have something we will stand by until our final hours. For me I vowed never to be an At&t customer again and that was

6 years ago.

Well, things change and I went back to At&t.

I think Bill is set on his dislike for the hardware and that will not change, if however Bill finds a garage full of Rogers hardware I hope he gives it to me so I can sell it to all of the people that still like it.

Other then that to him it sucks and to you it does not.....

I personally have limited experience with Rogers hardware so I can't say much for it or against it.

I can't stand the Magnum Slingerland hardware!!!!!! Eye Ball

OK, I finally came out of the closet.

David

Welcome to the real world David.. LOL yes everyone is to be commended for keeping this civil and fun!... LoLoLoLo flowers2 Cool

Hmmm - yes I get repetitive, as it seems I may have to 'dummy down' my posts for some people. First off, I must repeat my contention after each 'assault' because I try to stay with my idea that ROGERS HARDWARE IS NOT AS DURABLE AS WE LET ON.....that has been my contention from the start. I used an example of mounting toms on their cheesy tom posts etc....the discussion ultimately steered that I 'said' or appeared to imply that the sound was lousy (GET THIS GUYS) WHEN IN FACT, I DID NOT. So yes, I feel I need to constantly re-focus all those with ADD, or ADHD, back to my original contention.

Whoever posted the pic of the old collet....big deal. I can actually photo one even nicer looking....problem is, I have 3 right now that I can photo that are complete junk, as well.

How do you suggest I back it up? Many issues are supply and demand. You simply do not find much of this stuff around anymore. If it has anything to do with experiences like mine, it is broken and buried by now.

Tama made the best hardware. The titan stuff of the early 80's could be dropped from an airplane and still function perfectly. Who wants to lug this stuff around though? Each stand weighs in at 35lbs ea. But they are still the front-runners in bass pedals and hat stands, and their higher end kits aren't too bad either......

oh and just for the record....I mainly play Roland now.....sound is not an issue. I have a programmer that can model any sound known to man. You want the Rogers sound? You got it AND....I don't have to worry about my tom collapsing or my palm bleeding from a collet.

I must suck ass as a player, Ive never gotten a tom mount to collapse on me, or hit through a snare head, or busted the batter on a bass drum, and I dont have a stack of NFG Cymbals in a corner somewhere all with cracks on them.

Cleveland, 1964, Excellent Condition. ............

Ayotte Custom makes some nice looking mounts.

I just wanted to post a Collet pic.

ok ok...I'm bowing out of this. You guys are just like my wife. This has been twisted way beyond my original contention - way to go ploughman. Did I question anyone's ability to play? I feel like I'm dealing with a fifth grader and I need to diagram my points for you. Congrats on not ever breaking anything and with your line of reasoning....you must be the best drummer ever.