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Who here has not gotten along with a china/swish

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I know you jazzers play chinas/swishes totally different than, say rockers. I look for a quick accent that I smash with 5B's, some of you lot ride them and make them sound quite pretty.

I have found that if there is anything I just was never keen on in Paiste's offering was their china cymbals. Maybe I need to go to a shoppe with all of their offerings and see if there's one I can get along with. I had a beautiful signature that would have been perfect for jazz, but bunny doesn't play jazz.

My main complaint is the long sustain most chinas have. I want a cutting accent that cuts *just* enough.

For now, my best compromise is the ddrum Carmine Appice Shade cymbal. Yeah, it's shaped like a lampshade!!! It's got china trash with the quickness of a splash. I did remove the lacquer and Carmine's mug/ddrum stamps from the cymbal and am aging it with saltwater. This quick patina is actually mellowing out and drying out the sound. There was a tooth-rattling quality that is now going away since I started to age it.

What do you look for in a china/swish? Have any of you had the same problems with getting along with a china cymbal?

Yeah- I'm THAT guy!!!

Dead dogs like rusty fire hydrants!!!
Posted on 13 years ago
#1
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I love the Paiste Chinas & Swishes, currently have an 18" Sig thin China & 20" Trad medium-light Swish (autographed by the drummer for System of a Down that I won in a Charity Auction for $100) and I love them both! My 18" Sig has had the crap beat out of it (by the former owner) but I only paid $39 for it in a sleezeBay Auction. I took a rubber mallet & a small brass hammer and cold forged her back into shape & she sounds great. As far as hard playing goes I prefer the 2002's, they cut better & have a quicker decay...I had 2 on my kit in the 70's-80's and they were great. The Sigs & Trads, IMO, lean more towards Jazz/Funk/Pop...they sound too pretty for rock.

Just my :2Cents:

"Play the drum...don't let it play you" - Max Roach

1968, 1974 & 1984 Rogers Dyna•Sonic COB
1971, 1976 Slingerland GK Sound King
1973 Slingerland Festival
1920's-40's Slingerland (US Military) Field Snares (6)
19?- Ludwig Field Snare (US Marines)
1960's Premier Gold Glitter Student Snare kit
1960's-? MIJ Snares (way-way too many)
Posted on 13 years ago
#2
Posts: 2753 Threads: 132
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My thought regarding China cymbals is that they are less musical sounding than hitting a hub cap from a 1953 DeSoto with a soup ladle. My very first cymbals in the mid 1950's were cheesy little things that bent in a new place each time they were hit with a stick. To me, they sounded about the same way the most expensive China sounds. I have never owned a China cymbal or wanted to own one. (I have yet to find an emoticon to portray an old curmudgeon)

No matter how far you push the envelope, it is still stationery.
Posted on 13 years ago
#3
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My first China was a Paiste 2002 20" China Type that I received as a high school graduation present. I asked for it because I loved the sound of Terry Bozzio's on "Honey, Don't You Want a man Like Me?" on "Zappa Live in New York." I had read enough Paiste literature to know that I would be getting something very close to that even if I had to special order it.

Mounted upside down, it was great for rock, even more so when I installed four rivets a few years later. The rivets added a bit of sustain for "Abacab"-style riding on the edge, but jazz riding was out of the question. I started playing more blues about 10 years ago and started mounting it bell up, which opened it up for jazz riding but hindered edge riding. Crashes were mellower, but still commanded attention. That cymbal, however, is currently retired.

In 2005, a Sabian Vault Tour came to Santa Barbara, and I picked up an exquisite 18" prototype of what would eventually become the HHX Chinese. I can't speak to the finished product, especially because Sabians and Zildjians vary even at the highest levels, but my cymbal is absolutely superb mounted upside down. First, it opens up immediately even by hand. Jazz riding is not bad with the tip along the downturned edge although I have to tighten it a bit before those songs to keep if from moving around too much. Accents with the shank along the bend are lethal and fade out immediately. Crashing the edge gives just the right bit of sustain. With a mallet, it's almost like a gong and a cymbal roll is a thing of beauty. The best thing I can say about this cymbal is that other musicians who usually don't like Chinas—drummers and non-drummers alike—have commented on how much they love this one.

I also have a 19" Sabian Paragon China that I enjoy, but it's not as versatile as the 18". Then again, I don't think it was meant to be: Neil Peart probably had only one use in mind when he collaborated in its design.

I have been intrigued by the Sabian O-Zone crashes. In testing and in playing on a friend's set, they have shorter sustain with none of the clankiness that can be associated with some Chinas. I'd recommend them for someone who is interested in dabbling in a China: You can get an idea of how one might fit in with your playing while still having a very serviceable crash.

Finally, and I don't mean to paint with too wide a brush, but I had a bad experience with an A Zildjian 20" China Boy Low. It sounded great with its brethren when I tested it (which is how I always audition cymbals), but it wound up being too abrasive for the music. I found it a good home, but it's the only time something like that has happened to me.

9x Slingerland New Rock 50N 12-13-16-22 with 170 (Super S-O-M) holder
• 1979 Oak
• 1978 Blakrome + 6.5x14 TDR SD
• 1977 Black Diamond Pearl + 5x14 SD (gold badge, Rapid strainer)
• 1976 Black Cordova
• 1975 Silver Sparkle + 5x14 SD (Rapid strainer)
• 1974 Chrome + 5x14 COB TDR and 6.5x14 COW Zoomatic SDs
• 1973 Purple Sparkle
• 1973 Phantom (clear)
• 1971 Walnut (gold badges) + 5x14 TDR SD
1x Rogers Powertone Londoner V 12-13-16-22
• 1972 Butcher Block + 1979 big R Dynasonic SD
Posted on 13 years ago
#4
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From leedybdp

My thoughts on China cymbals is that they are less musical sounding than hitting a hub cap from a 1953 DeSoto with a soup ladle. My very first cymbals in the mid 1950's were cheesy little things that bent in a new place each time they were hit with a stick. To me, they sounded about the same way the most expensive China sounds. I have never owned a China cymbal or wanted to own one. (I have yet to find an emoticon to portray an old curmudgeon)

Yeah- that's kinda the way I feel most chinas sound. I just couldn't get into the sound of most. That's why I like my Shade cymbal- cheap as chips and it has a short decay. It works with how I play.

Yeah- I'm THAT guy!!!

Dead dogs like rusty fire hydrants!!!
Posted on 13 years ago
#5
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It's funny ... I was just noticing that I've never replaced my chinas. I LOVE chinas and have had a huge variety of them through the years. But, when I cleaned out and standardized, I guess I never brought the china back in. Wow. That's really strange.

I've liked the Paiste 2002 Novo's for serious hammering rock. The Sound Formula (FrankScript) thin chinas were beautiful. Zildjian K 17 and 19 chinas were slick and quick.

Sabian B8Pro 18 and 20 were THE BEST chinas I've ever played. I realize this sounds strange, but they honestly were. I used them in every genre except Tred Jazz ... Just a hair stiff for intimate small group. I would own the B8 Pro 20 china over any other china offered. Amazing cymbal.

What Would You Do
Posted on 13 years ago
#6
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From fungus amungus

I love the Paiste Chinas & Swishes, currently have an 18" Sig thin China & 20" Trad medium-light Swish (autographed by the drummer for System of a Down that I won in a Charity Auction for $100) and I love them both! My 18" Sig has had the crap beat out of it (by the former owner) but I only paid $39 for it in a sleezeBay Auction. I took a rubber mallet & a small brass hammer and cold forged her back into shape & she sounds great. As far as hard playing goes I prefer the 2002's, they cut better & have a quicker decay...I had 2 on my kit in the 70's-80's and they were great. The Sigs & Trads, IMO, lean more towards Jazz/Funk/Pop...they sound too pretty for rock.Just my :2Cents:

I think I just have to find the right one. The selection is so limited in most stores these days...

Yeah- I'm THAT guy!!!

Dead dogs like rusty fire hydrants!!!
Posted on 13 years ago
#7
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From RogerSling

Sabian B8Pro 18 and 20 were THE BEST chinas I've ever played. I realize this sounds strange, but they honestly were. I used them in every genre except Tred Jazz ... Just a hair stiff for intimate small group. I would own the B8 Pro 20 china over any other china offered. Amazing cymbal.

Interesting assessment. I may try one of those!!

Yeah- I'm THAT guy!!!

Dead dogs like rusty fire hydrants!!!
Posted on 13 years ago
#8
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From al9000

My first China was a Paiste 2002 20" China Type that I received as a high school graduation present. I asked for it because I loved the sound of Terry Bozzio's on "Honey, Don't You Want a man Like Me?" on "Zappa Live in New York." I had read enough Paiste literature to know that I would be getting something very close to that even if I had to special order it.Mounted upside down, it was great for rock, even more so when I installed four rivets a few years later. The rivets added a bit of sustain for "Abacab"-style riding on the edge, but jazz riding was out of the question. I started playing more blues about 10 years ago and started mounting it bell up, which opened it up for jazz riding but hindered edge riding. Crashes were mellower, but still commanded attention. That cymbal, however, is currently retired.In 2005, a Sabian Vault Tour came to Santa Barbara, and I picked up an exquisite 18" prototype of what would eventually become the HHX Chinese. I can't speak to the finished product, especially because Sabians and Zildjians vary even at the highest levels, but my cymbal is absolutely superb mounted upside down. First, it opens up immediately even by hand. Jazz riding is not bad with the tip along the downturned edge although I have to tighten it a bit before those songs to keep if from moving around too much. Accents with the shank along the bend are lethal and fade out immediately. Crashing the edge gives just the right bit of sustain. With a mallet, it's almost like a gong and a cymbal roll is a thing of beauty. The best thing I can say about this cymbal is that other musicians who usually don't like Chinas—drummers and non-drummers alike—have commented on how much they love this one.I also have a 19" Sabian Paragon China that I enjoy, but it's not as versatile as the 18". Then again, I don't think it was meant to be: Neil Peart probably had only one use in mind when he collaborated in its design.I have been intrigued by the Sabian O-Zone crashes. In testing and in playing on a friend's set, they have shorter sustain with none of the clankiness that can be associated with some Chinas. I'd recommend them for someone who is interested in dabbling in a China: You can get an idea of how one might fit in with your playing while still having a very serviceable crash.Finally, and I don't mean to paint with too wide a brush, but I had a bad experience with an A Zildjian 20" China Boy Low. It sounded great with its brethren when I tested it (which is how I always audition cymbals), but it wound up being too abrasive for the music. I found it a good home, but it's the only time something like that has happened to me.

I feel the same about the Zilly you speak of.

I will take your suggestions.

Yeah- I'm THAT guy!!!

Dead dogs like rusty fire hydrants!!!
Posted on 13 years ago
#9
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One of my first cymbals was a Paiste 2002 22" china type. It took some time to get used to it and an understanding of its nature. It to me always sounded way better with music than just with the kit.

I can readily agree with al9000's comments below... especially the gong statement. Washes with mallets are incredible with something like this cymbal.

Quoted post

Accents with the shank along the bend are lethal and fade out immediately. Crashing the edge gives just the right bit of sustain. With a mallet, it's almost like a gong and a cymbal roll is a thing of beauty.

Posted on 13 years ago
#10
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