The 2 piece shell,There is one man who not only knows nearly everthing about these shells but even makes modern copies in the old way. His name is Adrian Kirchler, he lives and works in Italy but if you cant just call in then go to his web site,AK-drums.com.Click on news and find the 2 piece shell is back and click on the photo,all will be revealed.He also is the only man in the World I know of that can restore a Ludwig & Ludwig deluxe[black beauty] with out touching the engraving.Click on "restoration" then on engraved drums, to see before and after photos of restored drums including one of mine[the 1st one],some of Mike Corotto's and others.

Adrian is also a most helpfull guy and will help and advise.He also is a master engraver even engraving for some little drum making company called Ludwig and others. Dion...:)

OK, I looked at the throw off on my Ludwig black beauty, which I know is a 1928. On the lever is says: Pat.Pend.

Thank you very much for this info, Cool1Yes SirKeep on Pl

sammypenn - Thanks for pointing us towards that fine drum craftsman! Nice drums!Cool1

Can anybody here confirm that this was the exact method used by Ludwig back during their two pieced shell era? I like this guy’s work, but again only a vague reference to “...Ludwig & Ludwig shells of the 1920s” (See the full quote from AK’s site below). I’m trying to develop a timeline on these drums so we can be more specific in the future. The part where he mentions “...the center bead that is thicker than normally...” gives the impression that he has changed his version some. How did Ludwig actually do this with their 2 piece shells? Anybody got photos of a Ludwig 2 piece shell interior?

Here is the AK quote, visit his site to see a photo:

Two-piece Brass Shell modeled on the legendary Ludwig & Ludwig shells of the 1920s.

The combination of the special bearing edges with the center bead that is thicker than normally makes it possible to make a very rigid shell out of such a thin sheet of brass!

atomicmorganic - Excellent! My 8 lug Pioneer as mentioned in a previous post in this thread, reads “PAT APPD FOR”, and is from somewhere around or between 1928-1932 if I understand correctly.

“Patent Pending” and “Patent Applied For” possibly mean two different things, so timeline may be evident here. Example: the application for patent has been submitted (Applied For) then the application is being checked against other known patents but is acknowledged by the patent office (Patent Pending), and of course once the patent is issued there is no mark/notice required. BUT!!! We will need to track many more strainer marks from date known snares that have this enduring strainer. This strainer had been around for quite awhile before our two drums were made, so maybe they had a huge inventory left over of "pending" and "applied for" strainers. Or maybe they just got around to patenting this strainer around 1928. We need to see Photos of many more of these!

Opinions vary about the exact sequence for the making of the shell,but basically the shell was made by rolling two pieces of brass sheet into tubes, soldering the vertical seam push one inside the other about 14mm[for the bead] with the seams on opposite each other,then the bead was rolled in making the bead double thickness,the bearing edges were spun and soldered..If you click on the photo of Adrians shell it shows a closeup of the bead showing both.

Some say that the 2 small areas of solder around the inside of the bead are all that holds the 2 halves together apart off coarse of the bead itself,But I am sure that at least on one of my shells the out side tube was brazed all round to the inner tube,its only about 3mm wide but I'm sure it was used to hold the 2 pieces together while the bead was rolled.I think that the 2 areas of solder are more likely to stop any rattling between the 2 halves.

I have been inside the double bead when I was given a super Ludwig which had been cut in half around the centre of the bead to make a deeper drum.

Dion...:)

sammypenn - THANK YOU! This is the type of info I have been waiting for. I am assuming you are referring to the old Ludwig method and not AK’s (although they may be similar). I’m starting to get the picture more clearly. Now, if we could get some photos of the old drums interiors and such we could document the specific differences here.

Clapping Happy2

I went back and visited AK-Drums and really took a look at the great photos at the link I posted below (Perclee here on this forum brought this link to our attention in an earlier thread). The second photo from the top on AK’s page seems to confirm what sammypenn mentioned above. The internal horizontal seam (the vertical seam on the lower half of the shell is shown too) and sheet thickness is very visible on the top edge of the center bead in this photo. It doesn’t appear to be soldered in that portion of that drum. Now on the other hand, the horizontal seam on the lower side of the bead would be on the outside of the drum and those external seams I believe would have all been soldered and buffed as not to show on the outside of the drum.

Were there any variations of these Ludwig production methods in the heavier shell era, or were these drum shells produced this way consistently?

http://www.ak-drums.com/Gallery/mystical-seams.html

It’s looking to me like Ludwig made all their brass shelled snares in the “Double Bead” center rib (2 piece, 4 seam with the double thickness in the center rib) until some time around 1930 (in The USA the Great Depression was starting). The exception is the “Junior” model that they possibly introduced sometime in 1925, but it definitely was in their 1926 catalog.

It seems that the “Junior” model might be the first metal shell to have the single seam and thinner center rib.

When the “Universal” model appears for the first time in the 1924 D catalog, it looks as if it was issued with the “Double Bead” center rib at that time.

The 1927 catalog has a good description of the “Double Bead” shell, although the cut away image of the shell looks to have a vertical seam all the way up through both half pieces and that is more like the 1 piece shells (probably just the art department’s choice of images back then).

The 6 lug “Pioneer” seems to first show up in the February 1928 catalog and although it is left out of the September 1928 catalog, it re-appears in the 1929 catalog, and is described as having the “double spun bead at the center” in that year. Meanwhile the “Junior” model continued to be the only one pieced thin center rib style offered. The “Universal” model is out of the 1929 catalog though. The 6 lug “Pioneer” and the “Junior” continue to be offered in 1930 without change.

By 1932 the Pioneer is now offered as an 8 lugger and appears in that catalog with what looks like a thinner center rib similar to the “Junior”.

In 1933 after five years, the “Universal” returns with 8 lugs and the better strainer like on the “Pioneer”. The “Pioneer” shows up in 1933 with the vent hole now in the closer position to the strainer and with a badge around the vent.

By 1930 Ludwig didn’t seem to be mentioning the “Double Bead” construction in their catalogs anymore. I’ve only seen the Ludwig catalogs available at The Vintage Drum Guide so I may not be aware of some things, but I’m hoping this log can help to identify some of those 20s Ludwig brass shelled snares out there, and get a good timeline date for the heavy shell/thinner shell evolution. There are other parts changes and details that we can use to get a narrower date ID on some of these snares too.

The “Double Bead” center rib shells had a whole lot of brazing and a double thick center rib so that would definitely add to the weight. I wish we could use a micrometer on the shells we’re familiar with to get some real sheet brass gauge info.

Feel free to help me correct this log, and please if you have examples of these drums, post good photos to confirm what those old catalogs presented.

Well I can't pinpoint when only because I'm not up on my Ludwig drum History,but I would like to know if anyone out there in Vintage land could tell me what I have? I have a 5" x 14" I think Nickel over Brass Super Ludwig snare with the Pat 1-29-24 (other patrn.pend )on the strainer, 10 tube lug. The Ludwig logo is stamped or I think engraved on the top and bottom rim. I'm just trying to get a timeline on this particular model. I do have a picture but am unable to download at the moment.Any Ideas out there,would be helpful. I know it is from the 20's.But not exactly sure. I might be willing to part withit if I can get some information on it. And I could text a picture in the meantime.Just need a # to text it to.

thanks for any input.