There are a few factors that go into giving vintage drums that warm vintage sound. One is the shell construction -- shells tended to be thinner back in the day, giving them a warmer tone overall. I'm also told that mahogany has a warmer, mellower tone than maple, so a 60s Ludwig kit (with mahogany/poplar/mahogany shells) may get you closer to the sound you're looking for. That said, Gretsch was using maple shells way back when, and they too sound warmer than newer drums.

To my ear, the biggest factor is the bearing edges (i.e. the edges where the heads make contact with the shells). Vintage drums have rounded bearing edges, giving a much softer, warmer tone with less attack. Newer drums tend to use sharper 45-degree bearing edges, giving a much brighter tone. I like both sounds; it's really just a matter of taste.

Some say that the age of the wood is also a factor. Some people say that vintage drums get their sound from having been played for so many years. I don't know enough about physics to comment, but there may be something to it.

There are companies selling shells that you can finish or wrap yourself. The big ones seem to be the following:

www.precisiondrum.com

www.amdrumparts.com

www.drumfoundry.com

www.drumbuilder.com

www.billyblast.com

The problem is that most of them will cut 45-degree bearing edges, leaving you with newer-sounding drums. You'll also find that it's quite costly to go this route.

If you're looking for a kit with a vintage tone, my advice would be to keep your eye on craigslist, check out the back rooms of local music stores, and hunt down bargains at garage sales. There are still great deals to be had on vintage drums. If you shop wisely, you'll find that a good vintage set can still be much cheaper than a newer kit. (And, IMHO, so much cooler.)

A word of advice, though: be careful about piecing together an incomplete kit from random vintage drums that you find here and there, or from drums that are missing parts such as rims, heads or lugs. Sometimes there are real bargains to be had this way, but those little missing parts can add up quickly. In my experience, the cheapest way to go is usually to be patient and wait for a deal on a complete set.

Best of luck with your search! I remember doing the same thing when I was 15. It took me a year or two, but I eventually found the 1950s Gretsch kit that I'm still playing today. Be patient and keep an eye open for deals, and you'll find something great soon enough.

Maple drums should be warm sounding on their own, unlike birch drums. For more punch you need shallower drum sizes, deep power toms do not have as much punch. If they are DW's fast tom sizes, those are somewhere in between. Have you tried any of the following heads to try to get a warmer sound? Aquarian modern vintage, Remo Fibersyn 3, or Remo Rennaisance? These are all designed to give you a warmer calfskin head like sound, something that Rich and Krupa would have used in their heyday.

Keep in mind that its not just type of wood and sizes, but as stated above, vintage drums had a more rounded bearing edge as well. Thinner shells of different wood construction were a factor too, but I think everyone is missing a few things here. Heads used on all those old records were real calfskin heads. If you are a metal drummer or loud rock drummer, those aren't for you as they will not take the beating that will ensue. Also, the way they were recorded has a lot to do with the sound too. Generally the drums were recorded wide open with no muffling with one central room microphone. Thats all they had back then, so thats how they got the "warm" sound you are looking for. Also, the drums were bigger, think big sizes like Bonham used, but not hit as hard as Bonham did.

What kind of music do you play? You state you want warm and more low end punch yet you mention Rich and Krupa. I think you may be at odds here with what you are actually looking for since those guys really didn't have low end punch, more of a big boom boom boom sound going on for the big band drive. Their drums did have a warm jazz sound though......

Good point, Ludwig-dude -- I wouldn't describe Rich's and Krupa's drums as having "punch". They've definitely got low end, but I'd describe them as warm, open, rich and boomy.

Nemo, if you're looking for punch, you might want to keep experimenting with heads on your newer kit. (You say it's a CX series -- is that a Pacific/PDP kit? Great drums, IMHO.) A two-ply head such as an Emperor or even a Pinstripe will add warmth and body to your tone. Some find that Pinstripes deaden the sound and interfere with the drum's natural resonance, but tuned low they can provide you with punch if that's what you're looking for.

If you're into the warm, open, boomy Rich/Krupa sound, then yes, a vintage kit is what you're looking for. Ludwig-dude makes a good point about calf heads. I've gotten great warm tones from my 50's Gretsch kit using Evans G1 and G2 heads. (I can only imagine how much warmer they'd sound with calf!)

As for how much you can expect to pay: do a search for completed auctions on eBay; that'll give you a sense of the price range. Keep in mind that drums on eBay will typically sell for a bit more than they would on craigslist, so if you're willing to wait for a local deal, you should be able to pay less. Also note that vintage kits whose parts are all original will sell for more than kits with some replacement parts, so if you're not picky about things like original hoops and don't mind sacrificing a bit of resale value, you can buy a "player's kit" and get the sound you're looking for without paying a premium for collector's value.

If you're interested in a project, you can buy a beat-up vintage kit and refinish it yourself. This won't always save you money, though--drum wrap is expensive and can cost $150 or more for enough to cover a three-piece kit. There's cheaper stuff for sale on eBay (sold under the name "EZ wrap"), but the consensus seems to be that it's low-quality and won't last.

Whatever you do, make sure the drums are in good condition. A bit of rust may come off the hardware with a good polishing, but the shells should be round and free from cracks, and the bearing edges should be good. Otherwise you'll never be able to tune the drum.

Best of luck!

If you mean the sound they got in the 50's and before then you might want to think about calf heads.

First off, thanks so much for the help, really appreciate it.

In my experience listening to stuff like sing sing sing, and

channel one suite I've always heard the boom, but I still hear like..

a punch of some kind, don't know how to describe it..I guess the best

way would be to show you guys, I found a video online that is almost exactly what I'm looking for..

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyWkIs65ejg[/ame]

It might be the way he has them miced, but that's what I'm looking for.

Maybe that's more 70's ish? not sure.

Anyway, I found a kit on ebay for like..150 bucks, the guy said they were

mahogany shells from the 80's, but I don't know if I should do it or not.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270441720141&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

The shells look pretty thin, and given the darker color of wood (maybe the lighting just makes them look darker, not sure) I think they're mahogany.

Any thoughts?

Thanks so much for the help, I appreciate it a lot.

I will check craigslist again but so far no luck..

again, thanks!

-nemo

Yeah, so i came to the conclusion that what I'm really looking for is the 60's-70's sound.

I'm sorry, I just always thought I heard some low punch coming from the old

jazz drums, but maybe the 60's-70's sound describes what I'm looking for better..must me youtube's crappy sound quality telling me otherwise. That video should help though.

Thanks!

-nemo

The sound in that video is a pretty normal sound you get from good drums with (guessing) Remo Ambassadors heads.

In general, mahogany drums sound thumpy and sorta dead.. it can sound great but I don't think that's what you're asking for. Most people will like maple and birch better I think.

Truthfully, as far as the drums go, I never saw any difference in 50's, 60's or 70's Ludwigs apart from the hardware. I think the sound comes more from the player, heads and set preparation.

I'd avoid new shells and wrapping them. That will cost too much, and part of the reason old drums sound so good is because there were lots of old trees back then and that wood is for the most part gone.

My advice would be to score any brand of older American drums as cheap as you can - Ludwig, Rogers, Leedy, Slingerland, Camco... but I still think Gretsch are the most special because of the die cast hoops and COB hardware and the shells are especially nice... but they aren't best for everything - for big band a thinner shell seems to be better.

Okay, cool thanks man.

I think I've got a better idea of what I want now.

I'm really glad everyone could help!

I agree with everything MastroSnare said (although I love the dark sound of the 60s mahogany/poplar/mahogany Ludwig shells too).

A word of caution about mahogany: there's the mahogany that Ludwig made its shells from in the 60s, and then there's the "mahogany" that entry-level kits were made from. I don't know much about this area, but I've heard that they're two entirely different woods. I believe the cheaper stuff is called Philippine Mahogany and is also known as Luan. I wouldn't buy that Royce set -- it looks like a fairly cheap entry-level kit, and you're unlikely to get the sound you want.

MastroSnare has it right: seek out an inexpensive older set by one of the classic American drum companies.

Good luck!