And let me once again remind you that this subject has ZERO to do with what the intended purpose of that material was. If we were living back in the 50's and 60's or 70's then this discussion wouldn't even be taking place because we would all know what the catalogues were for and we would be using them for their intended purpose. But now the drums that we could have ordered any way we wanted them from those old catalogues, are no longer made. Times changed.

Now, we are in the relative future and when we go looking for the old stuff, we have to find the people who have collected it and are willing to sell/trade, etc. As a result, we have no music store to go to for guidance or reference as to what's what. What's left for reference, then? Hmmmm....

I don't care if there are 1000 drum sets out there with 10" toms and 28" bass drums or any other configuration that someone ordered that way direct from the factory-even if it was handed over to the customer by Bud Slingerland or Bill Ludwig, themselves. The only thing I am referring to, in regards to this subject, are the kits that were named and in catalogues. I don't care why they were named. I don't care who named them. I do care about accuracy when claiming one of these names and then applying it incorrectly.

If you're not interested in the named, catalogued configurations, that's fine. But I am interested in them and that's what this topic is about....well...turned into from the initial reason, anyway.

Now, I'm finding humor in this discussion. Is that allowed?

Yes. Humor is allowed.

My 2cnts

I always have even as a teen in the 60’s used my cats as a reference

it’s the only way to document what we have ....and to dream of what we want or wanted and still covet lol

Absolutely, jaghog....Thank you.

*EDIT I know that if I pull out that old Ludwig catalogue and see that Octa-Plus in walnut cortex sitting there, it's going to transport me back in time faster than any time machine could do! I see those pictures and it's like looking at a family photo album of "old friends" so-to-speak.

If I had unlimited space in my house, then I would get one, set it up and just stand there looking at it in 3D instead in a catalogue!

Can you imagine what the rest of the band would do if I showed up to a jazz gig, at a coffee house or someplace, and starting setting up an Octa-Plus? LMFAO!

I actually wonder just how many Octa-Plus kits in walnut cortex were ever even sold...probably not many. I'd bet it would be nearly impossible to find one, complete and intact -so much to keep track of and store for the average drummer and, for the touring drummers who might have gotten one, I'm sure those drums would have gotten banged up greatly! Those old cortex finishes were tough as nails, though!

It's perfectly fine to aspire to own a set just like one shown in a catalog. It's perfectly fine to use the catalogs as a resource to determine what you may have or not have, as long as you are aware that there are some inherent limitations in the overall accuracy when doing so.

What isn't fine, in my opinion, is disparaging someone's vintage drum set because it doesn't happen to perfectly match up with a catalog description or picture.

Now I understand that that did not happen in this particular thread, and I understand that the collector's market does apply a premium to catalog outfits. Most of my own sets do conform to catalog specs as well although I may not actually use them in that configuration. I know the catalogs like the back of my hand and recognize what does and does not conform. However a lifetime of experience has taught me not to blindly trust that information.

I just feel bad whenever someone excitedly posts about some vintage drums they bought or inherited, whether here or on facebook, or wherever, only to be shot down by numerous posts pointing out why their set is inferior because it doesn't line up with some arbitrary catalog description. It seems to happen often and is kind of mean spirited. If your goal is to own a perfect drum set, and you define that "perfection" by what was in the catalog then that's great. If you just want to have some drums to make music with or even just bang on in the garage, and you could give a hoot about what the upper echelon of collectors might think about them then that's fine too. The two groups, and everything in between, can certainly co-exist on friendly terms. This hobby should embrace all comers.

Absolutely, right, K.O. and there are plenty of threads around here that aren't related to catalogue referenced kits. When it's not my thing, though, I tend to leave those discussions to others. There's lots of people on this forum with a lifetime's of experience.....but everybody's lives and experiences are different. To each his own.

In the single section of the cats you can and a lot of people did buy one piece at a time that does not make them worth any less but the aren’t worth more either, a orphan drum would be still vintage but just not as we say in the vintage car thing

numbers matching with a kit put together that way

It makes a huge difference and granted some nice orphan assembled drums

I have no problem with that ,

there still old and still cool , and how many here have looked for that orphan drum to complete a kit it matches the cat but it’s still not bought that way so there you have it I just miss the youth of it all , walking in the music store and seeing you drum kit come to life

It knocks you off your feet and the rush was a buzz in itself

so yeah I still look at the cats and dream of a blue note

Oh wait I did have one for a New York minute oh and a stainless octaplus hmm I remember that one too so see dreams do get kit fulfilled if it wasn’t for the catalogue I would never of new what choice were out there

Now my cat is a little thread bear but now and again I still peruse what a brand spanking new kit looked like to relive the yesterday of my early teens mid sixtys....

Gary aka houndog

Knowing the guy who actually re-wrapped and/or "built" the drum, I think this is a case of a buyer not knowing what is going on. My friend's business, is mostly to take orphans, or damaged kits, and piece them together into something that sounds (and looks) good, for the student, or working musician at a price that is affordable. It is conceivable that the drum in its original state might have been 14" deep. It might have had damage, or it might have been a marching tenor tom. Or even a convert tom that was converted into a "kit" bass drum. (Hence the repro gullwing spurs) If the drum had a badge on it, the badge stays on it. Hence the mismatch of things that don't align (date of badge, vs size of drum in catalog, vs hardware). On the inside of the drum there should be a stamp or sticker with its history. Or it could be that the seller took the covert tom (or whatever) to him to be rewrapped and modified. Either way, I think we can safely assume that it isn't an early 60's factory jazzette.

Thank you, fellas....very much.