This is why I come to VDF

y'all rock!

There were absolutely NO Jazzettes in 1963....regardless of whether the 12 X 18 bass drum was available or not. The Jazzette did not appear, in catalogues, until the 1967 catalogue and that's where the named configuration first appeared. So, to try and sell someone a 1963 Jazzette bass drum is impossible.

And this kind of deception happens all the time and is almost always exclusive to the Jazzette configuration....because, while the 12" and 14" toms and Supras were ubiquitous among many Ludwig kits, a matching 12 X 18 bass drum was comparatively rare. That's why ya always gotta be suspicious when you see a rewrapped "Jazzette" bass drum listed separately from the rest of the supposed kit (that obviously never existed to begin with).

I hear a lot maybe "the customer requested". Hmm. in 1962 -1963 call me crazy but I don't think the option of "requests" was even a figment of the general drumming public's imagination. The idea a drummer is looking in a catalog- when drums were in stock on the floor- and saying " yeah I like whats on the floor but could you order in the same identical drum but with these spurs" I'm not certain that happened much. Now would a manufacturer send a dealer an odd drum. Yes. But customer involvement in the early 60s. hmm.. Majority bought what was on the floor in-stock..

Dealers resisted- I know in the car business- special orders when they had stock on the floor. the option of - the very thought of - letting a customer order a special build was rare. Did Manufacturers (without customer involvement) send Dealers weird combos Yes. Dealer may have noticed "differences" when it would arrive but would just put it on the sales floor without a word of explanation. (because no one no customer back then would ask..Back then the attentiveness of the customer was different . He trusted the dealer. And the dealer as was the manufacturer in most cases trustworthy. The acute attention to detail was less because the thought of bad sheeit wasn't even yet a concept. Trusted names. Didn't question because there was no need for it.

^^^Absolutely agreed, jda! This "custom order" argument never made sense to me, either.....But you'll sure hear/read it many times whenever something comes into question. I'd bet there were more hen's teeth than there were custom drum orders back then. Your points are absolutely spot-on. Thanks for adding that.

was pretty good wasn't it ;)

But, at the typical mom & pop music stores of the time there was usually not a lot of stock "on the floor" so if the set had to be ordered anyway that opened up the potential to easily tweak various things to meet the buyer's requests. The majority of sets probably were ordered just as they were shown in the catalogs but some folks did take advantage and get variations on the theme. Typically that would just be small details like double spurs or dual mufflers but it did happen. On the other end of the spectrum were the dedicated drum stores like Franks Drum shop in Chicago who were known to order their store stock sets with no mounting hardware installed so they could custom install whatever mixture or brand of hardware the customer desired.

A 12/14/18 set from 1963, 1964 or 1965 would not technically be a "jazzette" since the name had not been made up yet but my point was simply that if someone wanted such a set during that time frame it was attainable. Doubtful that many were sold (it doesn't appear that many Jazzette outfits were sold, even when cataloged) but such outfits might exist. Again, the bass drum we're talking about is questionable because of the rewrap. Once you know the badge has come off it's hard to know anything for certain. It might be a later drum, it might have been a "Gold Coast" bass with the tom mount plate area repaired and the rail added, maybe it was ordered with a rail. If you really want to be a stickler to the catalogs, since it's a wrapped drum it couldn't be from a "Jazzette" outfit anyway since it would have to be either mahogany or maple finish to qualify.

Personally I've never been one to discount the validity of various vintage drum sets just because they don't precisely match up to one pictured on a catalog. The reality seems to indicate that there were many sets sold that vary from the few configurations offered in the catalogs, yet careful inspection of these "oddball" variants will often show that they are "factory" sets that were "born" that way.

Well there's no way to really say whether the wrap would have the clout to change the name of the configuration or not....but I don't think so. Yes, it did say there were only two finish options for the Jazzette in the 1967 catalogue...but, for example, since there was no 1969 catalogue, then, technically, that could have been the year that Ludwig sold wrapped Jazzettes with no catalogue reference and no one can really say otherwise.

And if something has enough provenance behind it to show that, even though it might be an oddball set that's not listed in a catalogue, but is still a direct from the factory, matched set, then I think that's exceptional. But even then, it still doesn't make a kit more collectible because of that. Most collectors I know, wouldn't be interested in an all original oddball configuration

The very bottom line is that the listed drum isn't a Jazzette.

Choice of pearl finishes for a Jazzette doesn't pop up until the 1975 catalog. 1971 says choice of mahogany, maple, or Lacquer finishes and 1973 says choice of mahogany or lacquer finishes. In the 1975 catalog it says choice of pearl finishes (and even if you wanted mahogany you'd get the cortex version by that point). So I guess if you have a wrapped 12/14/18 with keystone badges you're just out of luck, it was a dreaded special order, although B/O badged would be fine.

Just pulling your chain here but if you want to strictly adhere to catalog criteria then this should apply.

Show me the 1968,1969 and 1970 catalogues now. Oh, wait...There are none. I contend that Ludwig did decide to make wrapped finish Jazzettes in '68-'70....but since there wasn't a catalogue to show it, it's just my contention. But, as I say, technically, no one can say what Ludwig might have done in 1968,1969 and 1970 -catalogue reference-wise.

I get it. What you're saying is that the wrapped options listed for the Jazzettes didn't appear in catalogues until 1975....granted. All I'm saying is that there is no reference to anything of the sort in 1968,1969 and 1970. And since I am a strict catalogue reference guy, I am going to need to see where they did not offer the option in those years. Maybe they did offer them during those years, but when the next catalogues finally did come out they went back to the two finish options again.

Certainly, I can understand that that wouldn't be very likely, but I am such a strict catalogue guy, that when I can't find a reference to a wrapped option for those years, but I OWN a wrapped 1969 Jazzette, then I'd have to assume it was an option during that period. Or, maybe I just found the one exception...But without a catalogue reference for those years, no one can really say.....

:)

Well, logic dictates that the catalogs were in effect until superseded by a new one, generally every two years. Ludwig numbered them to somewhat coincide with the calendar but that wasn't quite accurate, as they usually came out sometime in the year prior to the catalog number and weren't replaced annually . They re-used catalog illustrations as long as possible so often parts you got or details shown on a drum did not quite match what the catalog showed. Heck the catalog says that Classic shells are just mahogany and poplar plies up thru 1975, where did all those maple interiors come from?

I'd be hard pressed to believe that Ludwig wouldn't offer a wrapped finish as standard on the Jazzette in 1967 but then secretly would offer the wrap option in 1968 and 1969 only to take that option off the table again in 1971, then maybe secretly offer them again on 1972 but not in 1973. Besides, with no catalog how would anyone even know of the availability?

Obviously people requested wrapped Jazzette sets during that time frame and Ludwig complied with their requests. Wrapped sets exist but apparently were special ordered. Does that disqualify them from being official "Jazzettes"? I don't know, these aren't my rules as I embrace all manner of set configurations knowing that with Ludwig, if you asked them they would build it, just as long as you paid for it. Catalog be damned.