I'm not saying that anyone who customized their drum order, back in the day, made a big mistake. I'm sure that, at the time, those choices meant a more enjoyable drumming experience for the owners. However, those types of choices, made back then, created a less fortuitous outcome, now, in the present-day collector's market. They are two different worlds -two different windows in time and two completely-unrelated perceptions. One has to do with the way things were. The other has to do with the way things are.

Hey $hit happens. I did similar, unwitting things back then, too! When I ordered my first Rogers kit back in 1974, I thought I was ordering a Swivo set because the store only had the old Rogers catalogue at the time. When the drums arrived a few months later, in 1975, they were Big R drums. Heck, what did I know? I thought I was getting a better deal! How was I to know what would come of it at that time? heh heh I also wanted to replace all the original logo heads with Black Dot heads! Ugh! Oh well....Of course, I wish I had gotten the Swivo set, in retrospect. Even as great as I thought the Big R kit was, those drums didn't hold up on the collector's market. The Swivo kits sure did, though! Again...Oh well! The point is that I got and played some drums that I loved for years. If the story ended there and I never saw another drum in my life, then it would still be great. But, I became a drum collector years later and that changed my perspective on how I look at vintage drums, now.

I use catalogues to reference drum information so I can determine the legitimacy of certain questionable things....like a 1963 Jazzette bass drum! I'd like to know how anyone would go about identifying/verifying any of the collectable drum stuff without some kind of reference material.

Not me...not at all. If it was Ringo's actual kit, then sure. But a copy? nah. This is an entirely other area of collecting, by the way -and one that I'm not into. These types of collectibles have EVERYTHING to do with the fame of the player and not the drums, themselves. I can't relate to this area of collecting. I'm a fan of Ringo's and all, but not a fanatic! Some of these fanatical types would probably pay big money for a pair of Ringo's dirty underwear, too.

If I had the chance to buy low and then flip high a copy-kit like Ringo's, I'd do it in a second just for the money. I'd have little-to-no love for the drums, themselves.

All due respect, but since you're not a famous drummer, it's irrelevant what you preferred to use for playing gigs. No collector is looking for "your" preferred configuration. Again, no disrespect intended....just saying.

Anyway...I'm talking about drums as collectables -not drums for banging in and out of your car for gigging. What I prefer to play isn't always what's depicted in the old catalogues, either. That's a different discussion.

I'd have to say that if the 18 was a 12 X 18 and not a 14 X 18, and it came with the matching Supra instead of a Downbeat snare (depending on the year) and the rail mount was centered on the top of the shell and it had spike bass drum spurs, and there was no cymbal mount on the bass drum and instead, there were two cymbal stands, then it's a Jazzette. I don't think the finish option trumps the named configuration...as I've already said many times.

When Ford Model T's started off the assembly line, they were all black because it made it more cost effective for manufacturing purposes and the idea was to put people behind the wheel of a new Ford. But let's say that a few of those Model T's got painted brown or red (for whatever reason)....Does that different color paint mean it's no longer a Model T? Even if Ford advertised them to be black only? -just curious what you think.

Is a Jazzette just the shell pack drums? Or, is it the 12, 14, 18(X12) AND the Supra AND the proper hardware -including the stands- a Jazzette?

*EDIT In fact, now that I've been thinking about this for a minute or two, it reminds me that vintage drum configurations such as the Jazzette , Downbeat, Deluxe Classic....etc. were sold, back then, as complete sets and not shell packs. If you bought a Jazzette kit back in the day, then you got the matching Supra and the complete hardware package, too! The inclusion of the snare drum and hardware was so important, in fact, that they dictated the name of some configurations. There was none of this shell pack only stuff going on.

I don't think I or anyone said that the catalogs were "irrelevant". I did say they were often inaccurate as far as the description copy and/or illustrated item vs what Ludwig was actually shipping out.

In regards to my preference to using a 12" tom my point is that doing so with a 22" or larger bass drum varies from the catalog norm which would dictate that a single tom in that situation should be a 13" drum. I'm not sure of the connection to any famous drummers, other than the Buddy Rich outfit in the late 70's none of Ludwigs catalog kits have any direct connection to famous drummers. They are just configurations that someone in the marketing dept. likely came up with. My beef would be with someone who suggests that a 12/14/22 or a 12/16/24 set is "wrong" in some way. It might not adhere to some collector's arbitrary standards but there is nothing wrong with such a setup as a collection of musical instruments. Such a set may not be as collectible as one in one of the catalog configurations but it isn't less valid as a set of drums.

Btw: Model Ts were initially offered in various colors but once they really started mass producing them they started the only comes in black thing because black was the fastest drying paint and drying time was a bottleneck in their production line. Around this same time DuPont introduced a new fast drying lacquer paint in a rainbow of colors. General Motors was quick to jump on this new paint and offering many colors ( and different colors from model year to model year) was one of the things that gave them a leg up over Ford. That fast drying lacquer paint was called DuPont "Duco" a name which some of us drummers might be familiar with.

I am not equating anything you or I or anyone else plays as being wrong because it happens to go against the catalogue suggestions. I'm saying that any configuration that you or I may come up with to play, is irrelevant to what most collectors of vintage drum sets are looking for and consider to be an ideal or a desirable "prize" as a collectible.

If the seller hadn't used the term "Jazzette" for that bass drum, and just said "little/bop/jazz-size....etc." then I wouldn't have made this thread. I made this thread because that ad is another in a long line of examples where the "Jazzette" name connection has been used to possibly lever the pricing in a somewhat nefarious way. The reason being, the Jazzette drum set depicted in the vintage Ludwig drum catalogues is a rare and highly-desirable find to drum set collectors. To be able to snag the "heart" of one of these rare Jazzette kits gets a vintage Ludwig collector excited. But, it's no surprise that, at this point, after seeing similar deceptions happen over this term "Jazzette", here is yet another one. This time it's a 1963 Jazzette....which couldn't have ever existed for the obvious reason that we all know and have posted several times on this thread.

This thread is meant to be enlightening and to help make people pay close attention when it comes to Jazzette bass drums for sale. I can't think of another drum set or bass drum that has so much deception attached to it -not quite a "curse" but it's almost always something.

No one ever has this kind of issue with Super Classics! Burger Kin

On the other hand, when something comes along (every blue moon or so), that checks as many of the "legitimate/correct Jazzette" boxes as possible, then it's a real prize. I have yet to see a totally-complete and legit catalogue Jazzette, though. I've seen a few beautiful Jazzette shell packs for sure. But usually, the matching Supra isn't there and neither is the proper hardware package -much less the original hardware package. And this is also the case for almost any vintage configuration....always something missing....badge numbers are off...date stamps don't jibe...extra holes...rewrapped...always something. When you find something that's complete and totally original, that's really a score.

Even as inaccurate as the old catalogues were, (and the amendment sheets and all that), there's still nothing else to be used for reference....nothing. If not for the catalogues, what's to prevent this seller from claiming that his use of the term "Jazzette" is correct? How would we know there were no 1963 Jazzettes if not for the catalogues? Inaccurate at times? Yes. But far more accurate than sitting around the campfire and making up stories.

I guess I travel in the wrong circles as I don't seem to know any of these collectors. Probably just as well that I'm not participating, everyone is so busily trying to outcatalog each other that there's no time left for gigs.

We can agree to disagree and leave it at that. If someone wants to use a made up trade name to describe a drum then there's nothing to stop them. The market will sort it out. Anyone contemplating spending big bucks on a vintage bass drum ought to know enough to be able to figure out what it is or isn't. Perhaps they can consult a catalog.

Perhaps.

Perhaps, if they don't have access to the old catalogues, though, then they could come here, where lots of members went to a great deal of time and trouble and regularly contributed time and money so that David Anfuso could get this place going so as to provide access to much of this reference material. Perhaps people could do that, too. And, if they were to choose that option, then they might even end up in our little.....umm...."circle" of members.

It doesn't take a PhD in collecting something to realize that some collectibles are more desirable than others. A Billy Gladstone snare drum and stand can be valued at $85K...A really nice Black Beauty can go for several thousand dollars....While, at the same time, a nice, vintage Supra only sells for hundreds. They are all snare drums and I'm pretty sure they will all sound like a snare drum when you play them....but there is a vast difference in value for each example. Does anyone out there need to be a part of a group or "circle" to understand these things? Well, to be honest...yeah...kinda. That's why places like this forum exist.

No one is going to "stop" the seller from using that term. And yep, the market will sort it out. Move along....Nothing to see here! ;) Yeah, it's not a big deal, either way, but I thought I'd make this thread and share my knowledge about the subject for anyone who is interested in it...because this is exactly the type of place to introduce the topic...vintage drums and all....a circle of people with basically mutual interests gathered together for mutually-interested discussions....*cough*....;) Sometimes, though, people, who claim to not be interested in a subject like this, will put forth a lot of effort to state how uninterested in it they are. I find that to be...interesting. Burger Kin

If you're still able to find any musically satisfying gigs these days, then maybe I'm running in the wrong circles. But, to each his own when it comes to gigging. That's a different discussion, too.

As a manufacturer's rep in the music industry, I was in many music stores during many years in different parts of the country. In the late 1990's and early 2000's, a lot of drum sets in music stores (mostly drums made in Asia) featured large bass drums--24, 26, 28--with tiny-looking front toms (usually 10" and 12") suspended from floor stands and massive floor toms. I also noticed that many of those "custom" drum builders/assemblers advertising online were featuring drum sets configured that way. The marketing seemed to be aimed at the under age 30 demographic. It now looks as though that fad has passed. However, an 8x12 tom used with a bass drum larger than 20" does not seem odd to me--a break from the norm--but, still not odd. There are quite a few drum sets out there with 9x13 toms paired with 14x14 floor toms--odd but not too odd. Once again, let me remind the catalog police to thoroughly read their catalogs to see where the manufacturers state that other sizes of drums or types of hardware may be substituted by the drummer. They also state that the manufacturers might even send the drummer something that differs from the pictured drum set. Remember drum sets shipped with a mix of old badges and new badges? How about riveted seams?

I sometimes watch Jay Leno's Garage....not a big Leno fan or anything....I just like to look at his car collection....some of the nicest vintage and experimental prototype cars to be seen anywhere on television! It's not about envying the guy because he made a lot of money and can afford pretty much any kind of toy he wants. (Good for him!) It's more about liking cars, too, and thus, understanding the feeling of "having" something that you like, being around you, in your life....when you look at it, touch it, play it, drive it, etc. it makes you feel good. Jay Leno isn't a race car driver but he owns some racing cars....because he can....and because he likes them.

Many people own vintage drums for a similar reason -because they like them...like the way they look....like the design....like the shapes...Trixon Speedfire, Telstar, Ludwig Octa-Plus, Deluxe Classic, Slingerland Jet.....the list goes on and on.... The people who own these may have reasons, other than gigging, for owning them. (Who, on Earth, would even try to use an Octa-Plus on gigs? Okay, maybe there are a few people...) The point is, there are people who would just want to own an Octa-Plus without ever a thought about its utilitarian value. Some people might want to have that in their collection just to be able to finally touch that dream.

Maybe if Jay Leno were to take an interest in vintage drums, then we would all be watching that series and seeing him show us his collection of every kind of, dare I say it?....catalogued drum sets that we all remember staring at wistfully, on those glossy pages back in the old days.

It's a bit bold to state something like, "Catalogs be damned" to a group of people who rely on them for reference and also to those of us who enjoy seeing a catalogue 1967 Jazzette kit the same way that we might enjoy seeing a pristine 1967 CORvette on Leno's Garage.....But, if you ever see someone saying that they have a 1947 Corvette for sale, sometime, then don't believe it! heh heh