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~1970's Ludwig Black Oyster Pearl Jazzette~ Last viewed: 10 seconds ago

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From Osahead2

Hum, and I thought the no serial number PHASE pointy B/O badge transistion was somewhere between SEP 70 to OCT 70...

There is a grouping of such reports in that time frame, but as you can see from the information I provided, there are many other reports of badges without serial numbers from other time periods. I was typing my long post when you added your additional posts, so the discussion may appear a little out of order. I have gone back to add your reports to the main list and to try to address your points.

Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
Posted on 12 years ago
#71
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From Osahead2

I've seen another pointy B/O badge on the web with sn# 809239 date stamp Sep 8, 1970.I have my 14x14 pointy B/O badge with sn# 809239 date stamp Oct 21, 1970.

This serial number appears to be duplicated. Can you double check the information on the SEP 8 1970 drum?

Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
Posted on 12 years ago
#72
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From KCDrumDad

This serial number appears to be duplicated. Can you double check the information on the SEP 8 1970 drum?

SEP 8, 1970 sn# 802966 *** this was found on the web.

OCT 21, 1970 sn# 809239 *** in my collection and I think you might have already recorded it in your research project.

~ A true Gretsch & Camco fanatic ~
Posted on 12 years ago
#73
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Thanks for the clarification.

Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
Posted on 12 years ago
#74
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JUNE 2 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number - 13"x9" tom

w/ Ludwig mount - round dark gray felt muffler with adjustable knob,

clear maple interior.

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~ A true Gretsch & Camco fanatic ~
Posted on 12 years ago
#75
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From KCDrumDad

Craig,As you know, I have gathered information from a number of Ludwig drums. Of those with date stamps or Date Codes, I can report the following 25 (28 after edits from this thread) drums with badges that did not have serial numbers in the 1969-1972 time frame:JUN 9 1969 - Keystone Badge - Blank Serial NumberDEC 15 1969 - B/O Pointy Badge - Trimmed to remove lower portionDEC 19 1969 - B/O Pointy Badge - Trimmed to remove lower portionJAN 14 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Trimmed to remove lower portionJAN 20 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Trimmed to remove lower portionFEB 20 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Trimmed to remove lower portionMAR 3 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Lower portion scratched out - no serial number visibleAPR 3 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - reason for no Serial Number not recordedMAY 1 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Trimmed to remove lower portionJUN 2 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberJUN 16 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberSEP 1 1970 - Keystone Badge - Blank Serial NumberSEP 3 1970 - Keystone Badge - Blank Serial NumberSEP 18 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberSEP 21 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberSEP 30 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberOCT 1 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberOCT 6 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberOCT 7 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberDEC 9 1971 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberDate Code 5671_ - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberDate Code 58717 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberDate Code 58717 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberDate Code 59717 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberNo Date Stamp - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberNo Date Stamp - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberNo Date Stamp - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberNo Date Stamp - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial NumberIt does not appear from the dates I have gathered that the badges without serial numbers were appearing during the time of the switch from Keystone to B/O badges, which is generally considered to have occurred in the last half of 1969. Based upon the above, I would have to consider the urban myth busted.A few notes:1. It is possible that there were more than four drums with badges without serial numbers which also lacked date stamps. Some of these drums might not have been captured in the data collection efforts, as they are not a great deal of help when developing a serial number/date stamp based dating guide, which was the primary goal of my project. 2. There are likely multiple factors which resulted in the various drums listed above. I try not to speculate too much on why these occurred. At this stage, I am just happy being able to document that they did occur.Rick

Hi Rick,

Well, it sure looks like that is busted. The trimmed badges can be tossed I would think. I've seen that on pico snares but never on anything else. The only caveat I have to your observations is the method badges were supposedly attached. The first batch of badges could very well not have had serial numbers. If that un numbered batch was dumped into the 'badge bucket' (not sure what else to call it) they would be on the bottom, below subsequent numbered badges dumped in on top of them. This 'could' be the reason the un numbered badges showed up slightly later. I'm certainly not picking apart your hypothesis...

I'm just dumping mud in the water again. It's a habit of mine... :o

Craig

fishwaltz
Posted on 12 years ago
#76
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From fishwaltz

I've seen that on pico snares but never on anything else.

It's not just a piccolo thing. Blue/Olive badges with the lower (serial number) area trimmed off appear on Supras when the hole for the badge was drilled for the keystone badge but the shell was used during the time when blue/olive badges were put on. That's because the center bead left too little room below the hole if it was drilled at keystone badge height. I've seen several of them, and Rob Cook has a photo of one (The Ludwig Book, p 245). Infrequent, but not unheard of.

Posted on 12 years ago
#77
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From fishwaltz

Hi Rick,Well, it sure looks like that is busted. The trimmed badges can be tossed I would think. I've seen that on pico snares but never on anything else. The only caveat I have to your observations is the method badges were supposedly attached. The first batch of badges could very well not have had serial numbers. If that un numbered batch was dumped into the 'badge bucket' (not sure what else to call it) they would be on the bottom, below subsequent numbered badges dumped in on top of them. This 'could' be the reason the un numbered badges showed up slightly later. I'm certainly not picking apart your hypothesis... I'm just dumping mud in the water again. It's a habit of mine... :oCraig

Craig,

As you know, I try to gather information from the drums themselves to avoid what I called in my Gretsch paper "the legend and lore" of vintage drums. From the data I have so far, I can not yet explain why the blank badges show up when they do. I am am just working on identifying when they show up. I certainly acknowledge that speculation is part of the fun of this hobby/obsession of ours. It is my hope that with more data, our speculation can improve.

Note that reproduction badges without serial numbers are available. People are also known to take badges from other drums and replace missing badges. I try to review for alteration, but cannot always make that determination based upon the pictures available to me. I suggest that some reproduction or switched badges may sneak into the picture and really confuse the analysis.

As far as the trimmed badges, all six trimmed badges I reported on this thread were on Supraphonic snares.

Rick

Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
Posted on 12 years ago
#78
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I have just joined this forum and have found this thread very interesting as I have a jazzette of my own which as rare as they are in the US are almost totally unheard of here in Britain.

The knowledge on this forum is awe inspiring and I see there are some serious scholars of American drums here.

One thing interested me in particular and that was the question of available finishes and whether a jazzette could be considered a "true Jazzette" if it was not in the catologue specified finish of laquer.

As a Fender guitar has already been mentioned I think it is worth pointing out that in all the Fender catologues through the fifties and into the sixties Telecasters were offered in blonde finish and Strats in sunburst. No other colour option was offered.

Catologues are a great reference point but I think they are often taken too seriously, manufacturers, as well as offering custom orders would often test the market by sending out a finish to see how it sold, also certain dealers may ask for something exclusive to their store to entice the public.

Collectors often shoot themselves in the foot by passing up a good thing because they have no reference point for it in print or by imposing rules on their own passion for fear of the unusual.

I don't think it is too difficult to imagine a man walking into a drum store, seeing a jazzette for sale, loving it but telling the shop owner he doesn't like metal snare drums and the owner offering him a jazz festival snare instead, I imagine it happened all the time.

Anyway love the forum, interesting stuff.

Here is my little jazzette in factory gold sparkle, keystone badge

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Posted on 12 years ago
#79
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From brushbaby

I have just joined this forum and have found this thread very interesting as I have a jazzette of my own which as rare as they are in the US are almost totally unheard of here in Britain.Here is my little jazzette in factory gold sparkle, keystone badge

WELCOME to VDF my friend... it's nice to have you join us! Oh, by-the-way, you have a very beautiful clean Jazzette indeed...

Q: What are your serial numbers? You can PM me if you like.

~ A true Gretsch & Camco fanatic ~
Posted on 12 years ago
#80
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