Yeah, well, things are the way they are. If you focus only on the Jazzette, then there is no room for interpretation on the wraps, according to the catalog. Why do you think that Ludwig specified mahogany or maple ONLY if there was room for interpretation? After all, they didn't do that with any other kits that I know of. So, why be specific when it came to the Jazzettes? The world may never know? ;) What are your theories?

Also, yes, Ludwig changed to 20" bass drums later on for the Jazzettes. But that era tends to fall out of the range we generally refer to when speaking of collectible or sought-after drum sets from Ludwig. In fact, Ludwig has reissued the new Jazzette and it has different specs, too. I think we can all agree that the catalogs aren't the perfect reference, but what else are you going to do when you want a reference? Do you ask your friend, "Joe" down the street to define that? If not the catalogs for a reference, then what?

And, by the way, my two Jazzettes are both wrapped and thus not "perfect" Jazzettes...but I consider them as Jazzettes, anyway. I've only seen one, perfect Jazzette kit that didn't have some kind of funny thing going on. They are just very, very rare kits to find complete in the catalog configuration -for whatever reasons.

Hi Folks;

Okay, here's more mud in the water...

I went by "Bentley's" yesterday and took a few pix and talked to him about his "Jazzette's". First, I'm not crazy (well...) he's got two, kinda. The first is a real honest to goodness clear lacquer kit shown in the first picture. The sizes are: 12 X 18 (894189), 14 X 14 (848928) and 8 X 12 (884828) which is also date stamped 'Mar. 02, 1971'. All the above have clear interiors. The second, red sparkle kit has the more 'normal' 14 X 18 bass drum along with the 14 floor and 12 rack toms. The red kit is dated '72.

Craig

And now, here's even more mud...

Just an example of what one could do if you actually wanted something 'goofy'. This is a factory 18 X 16 (yep, 18 deep by 16) bass drum Ludwig cranked out for a special order. The B/O serial is 794097 which is kind of a best guess at the numbers. The badge seems to have been double struck with serial numbers or something, making it hard to read. The drum is a left over 50's 'Cocktail Drum' turned bass drum at the factory. They stuck four 'Club Date' style spurs on it. Hey, these guys were in business to make a buck. If the customer wanted it and was willing to pay the price, I'm sure Ludwig would do whatever was required to fill the order.

This is another of Dana's (Bentley) oddities that I thought could underscore this thread about the catalog -vs- uncatalogued items.

Weird, huh... sounds pretty sweet though!

Craig

Interesting discussion. Regarding serial numbers on B/O pointy badges, here are the numbers from my 1972 Mahogany Thermogloss Jazzette:

18x12 Bass Drum: 910912

8x12 Tom: 911200

14x14 Floor Tom: 910907

All have clear maple interiors.

More mud on the pointy B/O... but I must say WOW… you guys have been great providing photos and excellent information on decoding early pointy B/O badges and answering related questions.

But, I must admit this quest of mine trying to figure out the who/what/when & how about my goofy GROUPING has become a obsession of mine... and to think they collected dust in my closet for years up until recently so if, I continue to ask more pointy B/O questions please understand, I’m just a curious player/collector trying to get to a reasonable stopping point. But, I have one more…

Q: I mentioned earlier on VDF, that I have a pointy B/O 14x14 floor in my collection with a serial number and date stamp of Oct 21, 1970 as well as my pointy B/O 14x18 bass drum which has no serial number but a date stamp of Oct 1, 1970…. But now all of a sudden here comes in what we believe to be a beautiful 1971 burgundy sparkle 14x22 bass drum from another VDF member that has a pointy B/O no serial number but has a paper tag that reads 58717. So my thoughts about this are; an order came in for burgundy sparkle. But burgundy sparkle was not offered in the 1971 catalog. So Ludwig then sent a clear maple 14x22 shell through the special request no serial number production line to have burgundy wrap applied. Can anybody, take a stab as to why a 1971 drum has pointy B/O without serial number but has paper tag? I say, it was special ordered and NOT custom ordered. Attached is the 1971 finish page showing NO burgundy sparkle?

Also as far as custom orders, I attached a page from the 1970 Ludwig catalog and it clearly shows where Ludwig made Custom drums… okay, we got that… I see my custom ordered pointy B/O 14x18 bass drum listed for $151.00, and I see the 8x12 tom for $98.00, BUT what, I don’t see is my 14x16 bass drum that, I mentioned earlier on this forum?

The 14x16 is constructed identically to the 14x18 bass drum (with matching 8x12 tom) in every way but only smaller and has a chrome rims. So, I ask… is this custom order? OR was this some goofy prototype bass drum developed to compete against Slingerland who also at the time had a small bass drum offered with chrome rims and not wooden hoops? How did a 14x16 drum shell with clear maple interior come about… it’s not a cut down 16x16 floor tom so don’t ask. Apparently somebody crudely other than Ludwig installed Slingerland spurs and Rogers mounts on the shells for some reason? And this is the part other then the size of the shell that baffling the hell out of me….

Please note this is not a Jazzette question… we are talking about 14x16 and 14x18 bass drums…

Please note this is not a Jazzette question… we are talking about 14x16 and 14x18 bass drums…

oooOOOOOoooooOOOOOooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh.......

PLEASE!

OF COURSE LUDWIG WOULD HAVE FILLED WHATEVER ORDER A CUSTOMER MADE.

No one has even come close to suggesting otherwise.

I don't know how to make this more clear than I already have -without speaking a different language.

MY POINT is that there did NOT used to be a collector's market back "in the day". SUBSEQUENT to Ludwig making those catalogs with those kits that THEY configured and NAMED, a collector's market sprang up. In order to reference the collectible drums, people started using the old catalogs -mainly because there was NO other reference material.

So...There is a reference source for many of the drum sets that Ludwig sold. it's not a perfect reference source, but it's THE reference source.

What happens is this: It's understood that there are kits that do not fall under the strict umbrella of the catalog references -custom orders, kits that had drums added to them later, etc. But there are also some other kits that DO follow the catalog...

Take, for another example, the Deluxe Classic kit. Okay, here is a kit that's EXACTLY like the very ubiquitous Super Classic -except for ONE little thing; no bass drum mounted cymbal and the type of hardware package is different. That's it! So, can a collector take a Super Classic, remove the bass drum mounted cymbal arm, change the hardware package to the Atlas stuff and then call the kit a Deluxe Classic? ........NOPE! That would be a converted Super Classic. And no one would dispute that.

But with Jazzettes, it happens all the time that someone disputes that a Jazzette can have a 14" deep bass drum. It seems REALLY cut and dry to me, but there sure are lots of people who have some kind of problem with accepting that. I don't get it.

What if someone ordered a Fender Stratocaster back in the 60's, but they decided to order it with a neck from a Telecaster? What if that guitar came right from the Fender factory that way? Would it make any difference to a collector of Stratocasters? Would that particular Strat be the holy grail of all Strats because of the Telecaster neck? I doubt it.

So, the same rules apply for Jazzettes. There aren't many out there regardless of how "right" or "wrong" they might happen to be. HOWEVER, to find a clean, matched Jazzette kit in the catalog finishes with the matching Supra and the hardware is extremely rare -EXTREMELY rare!

I have written about this at length in the past.

The short version of the story is this:

I believe that Bud Slingerland and Bill Ludwig were EXTRAORDINARY rivals. When it came to small "jazz kits", I believe that Slingerland built the Jet kit to accommodate Roy Haynes' (who was a Slingerand endorser at the time) wishes for a small kit that would fit into his sportscar (An Alpha Romeo, I think). Roy had removed one of the wood rims and t-rods on his bass drum and replaced them with a regular 18" floor tom hoop and regular lug screws. Slingerland made the Jet kit with the same idea in mind.

But, then Ludwig made the Jazzette with a shallower (12" deep) bass drum than the Jet, and a year later, Hayne's jumped ship and started playing Ludwig. I guess the loss of those extra 2 inches made the Jazzette fit into Roy's car better.

I do agree with everything you said, but it might be fun to say it again in a different language. Which were you thinking of? flower

Craig

Portuguese

Tudo bem?

Excited

Notice there is no offering for a 12 X 18 bass drum on that chart? :)

JUST from the fact that Slingerland and Rogers mounts were added to that shell almost assuredly means that it was a special order. Because THERE IS NO WAY UNDER THE SUN AND MOON AND STARS THAT BILL LUDWIG WOULD HAVE BUILT A PROTOTYPE DRUM WITH A RIVAL'S HARDWARE. Slingerland and Ludwig were like the Hatfields and the McCoys!