I was hoping for Western Magar but will take what I can get, of course...

iPay atinLay?

Another fact, Lugs. It was the shops that would change any hardware you wanted, or the end user. It was nothing at the time to order kits with others hardware. I can't remember for sure, but whatever MIJ outfit that had the fold out spurs (legs) was hugely popular when they first came out. You went in, bought your Ludwig or Gretsch... whatever and tell the clerk you wanted 'those new folding spurs' mounted. You know those were NOT factory.

I would like to comment on a few things here:

1. The Date Code of 58717 does not necessarily indicate a 1971 drum. I have yet to find anyone who has the key to interpretting the Date Code. I am working on it, but have not figured it out yet. Of the drums that I have recorded thus far, the earliest labels with date stamps (actual recognizable dates) are from the April 1971 time frame for B/O badged drums and the February 1971 time frame for budget line Standards. There may have been labels with earlier date stamps or Date Codes prior to this point. It appears that dates and Date Codes may have both been in use at the same time. Could the burgandy bass drum with the paper label and the no serial number B/O badge come from the September/October 1970 time frame? - maybe. Could the badge just have been sitting around until it was used on a later drum? - sure. Right now, I do not believe we have the answer to paper labels and Date Codes. Therefore, it is easy to speculate about what could have happened, but difficult to find data to support the theories.

2. I do not think that the blank B/O badges were linked to special order drums or that there was some sort of "special request no serial number production line." I have seen several ordinary, catalog listed size and finish drums with no serial number badges. There seems to be a concentration of these badges showing up on drums that are dated in the September/October 1970 time frame, but other examples show up on non-dated drums which may not be from that time period. If someone has a list of all drums with no serial number B/O badges, it might tell us something more. I am gathering information, but do not have a very large number of no serial number B/O badge drums in my database. I will not try to draw conclusions from such a small number of examples.

3. I do not believe that the only wraps available were those which were pictured in catalogs. There was a bit more fluidity involved. A wrap might no longer be pictured but might still be available. A wrap might be introduced and available before it was pictured in a catalog.

Therefore, the existence of a stock burgandy sparkle wrapped, clear interior 14x22 bass drum with a Date Code on a paper label and no serial number on a B/O badge is not out of the question.

Just my thoughts.

I've heard for some time that the un numbered B/O badges were mostly from the transition period from Keystone to B/O. At least that's the 'urban myth'...

Well, that urban myth just might be right since that 1971 burgundy sparkle bass drum with blank pointy B/O badge with paper label is not necessarly a 1971.

Okay VDF.... show me your blank no serial number pointy B/O badge drums!

Hopefully drums with stamp date. My guess is that hardy any drums will surface... I'll start this off... as most of you have already seen my pointy blank B/O badge drums with a date stamp of Oct 1, 1970.

Now show me or tell me about yours!

Not to side-track with what is going on here. If anyone wants to add photos of their kits to this page... Please email them to me.

http://www.vintagedrumguide.com/jazzette.html

Thanks and now back to your regularly scheduled constructive discussion

David

KCDrumDad and others, I hope this helps...

I attached is another B/O pointy badge sent to me from Japan no serial number with date stamp of Oct 7, 1970.

I own a B/O pointy 14x18 badge bass drum no serial number with date stamp of Oct 1, 1970.

I've seen another pointy B/O badge on the web with sn# 809239 date stamp Sep 8, 1970.

I have my 14x14 pointy B/O badge with sn# 809239 date stamp Oct 21, 1970.

Now here is the weird part... I own another pointy B/O badge with sn# 769254 date stamp May 20, 1970. But the other day a VDF member sent in pointy B/O badge sn# 781201 date stamp Apr 10, 1970... and I saw on the web a pointy B/O badge sn# 802781 date stamp Aug 27, 1970.... the sn# got off somewhere between in MAY 1970?

And yet another one...

A complete WMP set 22/13/16 pointy B/O badge no serial number date stamp June 16, 1970. This beautiful set is in Amsterdam.

Hum, and I thought the no serial number PHASE pointy B/O badge transistion was somewhere between SEP 70 to OCT 70...

Craig,

As you know, I have gathered information from a number of Ludwig drums. Of those with date stamps or Date Codes, I can report the following 25 (28 after edits from this thread) drums with badges that did not have serial numbers in the 1969-1972 time frame:

JUN 9 1969 - Keystone Badge - Blank Serial Number

DEC 15 1969 - B/O Pointy Badge - Trimmed to remove lower portion

DEC 19 1969 - B/O Pointy Badge - Trimmed to remove lower portion

JAN 14 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Trimmed to remove lower portion

JAN 20 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Trimmed to remove lower portion

FEB 20 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Trimmed to remove lower portion

MAR 3 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Lower portion scratched out - no serial number visible

APR 3 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - reason for no Serial Number not recorded

MAY 1 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Trimmed to remove lower portion

JUN 2 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

JUN 16 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

SEP 1 1970 - Keystone Badge - Blank Serial Number

SEP 3 1970 - Keystone Badge - Blank Serial Number

SEP 18 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

SEP 21 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

SEP 30 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

OCT 1 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

OCT 6 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

OCT 7 1970 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

DEC 9 1971 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

Date Code 5671_ - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

Date Code 58717 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

Date Code 58717 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

Date Code 59717 - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

No Date Stamp - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

No Date Stamp - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

No Date Stamp - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

No Date Stamp - B/O Pointy Badge - Blank Serial Number

It does not appear from the dates I have gathered that the badges without serial numbers were appearing during the time of the switch from Keystone to B/O badges, which is generally considered to have occurred in the last half of 1969. Based upon the above, I would have to consider the urban myth busted.

A few notes:

1. It is possible that there were more than four drums with badges without serial numbers which also lacked date stamps. Some of these drums might not have been captured in the data collection efforts, as they are not a great deal of help when developing a serial number/date stamp based dating guide, which was the primary goal of my project.

2. There are likely multiple factors which resulted in the various drums listed above. I try not to speculate too much on why these occurred. At this stage, I am just happy being able to document that they did occur.

Rick

Can you PM me with some additional information about these drums so that I can add them to my database?

Also, please be mindful that it is widely accepted that serial numbers were not issued in strict numerical order and shells were not used in strict date order. Therefore we can establish at best a fairly high correlation between date stamp and serial number, not a strict relationship between them. Serial numbers will therefore appear "out of order" related to date stamps and vice versa.