The secon one sounds like a chopsaw blade !!

I personally don`t like either but wonder what they sounded like before damage/ modifications !!

Well I guess that just means that you need to check out your sound equipment too.

Maybe we could both go in together and get a 2 for one discount on some new equipment.

I can just see it now. I go into the computer store and the guy asks:

"Hello, how can I help you?"

My reply: "I've got this problem:

Well, every time I listen to a soundfile of this cymbal, it sounds like sh*t. I know that it can't possibly be the cymbal itself because it has a K in the trademark, so can you come up with some other sound equipment for me that will make me like it?"

As a matter of fact I can,...Artillery ear plugs !!

So we`ll be sent to the Army surplus store instead !!

Well...two or three rivet holes are not a crime. Rivet sustain can enhance small ensemble jazz. But while I have nothing against a couple of pre-existing rivet holes, I would NEVER drill an old K unless I was trying to prevent the spread of a crack.

While neither was my holy grail, I preferred the first one. I really did not care much at all for the second one. but I'm basing that on the recording and the sticks used. If I heard the cymbals live with my preferred sticks, VF AJ6s my conclusion could be different. As to the bell on the first one, it had the kind of Old K clunk that I prefer.

Old K's are like fine wines, which one must develop a taste for over time. Of course each of us has our own preferences...one man's garbage, etc. I may stand corrected here, but if I recall you have somewhat limited experience with old K's and may not be as familar with some of the attributes that others seek, especially for jazz use.

hahaha...don't get agresive please, we all know that you are the "Guru" Bowing of the old ks. I am going to throw it away just now.

You recall correctly,...I`ve never owned one myself, played very few personally but have heard a gazillion soundbites. I`m not big on useing cymbals too much anyway and just about everyone I know who has one, wont let me give them a try. I`ve been thrown off more kits than I care to remember. Dead giveaway of those sissy little dweebs that baby their kit and cry if you actually hit the drum, is useually that they have 10 or 15 cymbals hanging over their kit. I would be afraid to hit that first one because it might fold in half !! I allow people to try my kit. I don`t cry when they get a little loud or wack a cymbal hard.

I totally disagree about aquireing a taste for a cymbal,..I know right away if I`m going to like it. No moveing parts. Drums are a different story, they rattle or shake and it takes a while to play with the tuneing, so it may take a little to decide about a kit !! I`m only speaking for me !!

Wow! A lot of information there.

First, what do you mean you're not big on using cymbals too much? In the 1920's cymbals were mostly used for accents and effects. Today the cymbals are used as the main timekeeper in almost every form of western popular music (depending on tempi).

Second, why will no one let you try one? I'm 64,and I don't recall anyone ever denying me access. Of course asking to use someone's drums at a gig is a 'no no', unless you're known to the drummer and the band.

Exactly why have your been throw off so many kits? With regard to babying a kit, when someone has invested 5 or 6 thousand or more in drums and cymbals, they would like others to show some care and respect for their property. Perhaps you are a very heavy hitter, which is generally inappropriate for quality vintage cymbals, and unnecessary for most of the musical styles in which they are used.

Lastly there are different sticking techniques one could use on cymbals. Crashing very hard, straight down on the edge with a heavy stick is one sure way to develop stress cracks over time. Very heavy htting rockers should probably not be playing on expensive vintage cymbals. By the way. louder is not necessarily better, and based on your comments, I probably would be wary about letting you play on my drums too. Maybe the issue is not "those sissy little dweebs "

I don`t use the cymbals much, the HH is cymbal enough for me. I didn`t own any cymbals when I first started playing, after about six months I bought a HH at a flea market with no-name 13" cymbals on it. The only marks are MIJ on the outer edge, and some scratches on the bell that appear to have been done intentionally to count gigs or something. For over a year, that was my cymbals depending on how long I kept it open or how slow I closed it. When I finally bought two more, a 15" A and a 20"B8. The B8 looks like a warpped Lp now (but sounds OK) and the A hasn`t changed a bit !! I just don`t think about them !! If I pay two grand or more for an older K,..I`d either play it or hang it on the wall, What else is there ?(prolly hang it on the wall)

They don`t like how hard I hit a cymbal most of the time at the end of a roll, that`s when they say..."OK that`s enough !!"

I don`t disrespect other peoples` property (mom would kill me) but alot of drums shake violently and walk around and they fear damage to the BD mount or hate the divits that happen or just fall`n over so I don`t last long on other drums...there are a few exceptions. I don`t have those problems with mine and I play the way I play. I rarely do covers, cuz I don`t spend much time learning them, We had our own stuff !!

Here`s mine....