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Ludwigs in black paint?

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From Whatarethese123

Maybe I'm crazy, but it appears to have 8 lugs, wouldn't that be a Jazz Fest, not a Pioneer?

You aren't crazy. It can sometimes be difficult to tell 6 lugs from 8 lugs from a side picture like that. The uncertainly arises if the snare is turned at certain angles, how far away the camera is, and what focal length the lens is. Counting the number of lugs you can see can sometimes be misleading. And just guessing can be even more misleading.

The way I get a handle on it is to measure the distance between two adjacent lugs relative to the height of the snare. The ratio of snare height (including rims) to space between lugs on that image is about 1.25, which checks out as an 8 lug Jazz Festival. The ratio is about 1.0 on a 6 lug Pioneer because the lugs are further apart.

Posted on 6 years ago
#11
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From Whatarethese123

@ZenWhat was your process for removing the paint without hurting the wrap? Had you seen the wrap underneath it when the rims were off? What gave it away?

What I noticed first about the black paint finish is that it was deteriorating in the area where fingers touched it turning the snares on and off. That seemed odd. I then took it apart and removed a lug. Whoever had painted it had removed the lugs to do so, but there was still a hint that paint was added over a wrap. The other telltale is that on Ludwig drums this old the wrap is put on the flat plywood so when it is formed into a circle the wrap can still be seen diving under. Like this:

[img]http://black.net.nz/drums/pre-68-wrap-scarf2.jpg[/img]

On mine I could spot the wrap layer once the heads were off.

With my snare whoever did the paint job didn't remove the keystone badge. They just masked it. In other cases the badge may have been removed and then put back on. That can leave signs of badge tampering.

As far as removing the paint goes I experimented first with a small area under a lug in case anything I tried harmed the wrap. I ended up using rubbing alcohol and lots of elbow grease. I had a rag soaked in rubbing alcohol and would place it on one section for maybe half an hour which caused the paint to start to bubble a bit. At that point I just remember hours of fun rubbing with a rag made from an old t-shirt.

There may be other techniques but this was some years back and I wasn't sure what was safe to use on 60s WMP wraps.

And since you asked about prices, I don't track drum prices at the same level of precision I do cymbal prices, but what I've got is an expected range of about $300 to $450 based on 45 completed sales (not asking prices!). Condition matters, production era matters, and certain colors command much higher prices. Can you say Ringo? That instantly triples the expected price. :D

Posted on 6 years ago
#12
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Thanks for all the help. Figured I should know how much my max bid will be on this drum. Didn't want to overpay.

Now...I just need to figure out how I'm going to get to it if I win it.

Posted on 6 years ago
#13
Posts: 2010 Threads: 19
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From Whatarethese123

And finally I have made the connection as to why those finishes are referred to as Duco. I never really had thought about that one.

Fast drying industrial nitro lacquer from DuPont. Duco= DUpont COlor

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Posted on 6 years ago
#14
Posts: 6524 Threads: 37
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From Whatarethese123

Thanks for all the help. Figured I should know how much my max bid will be on this drum. Didn't want to overpay. Now...I just need to figure out how I'm going to get to it if I win it.

Keep in mind, 1968/69/70 are the only cataloged Jazz Fests with the throw two panels right of the badge. Available in black lacquer finish.

I think this is in Those years and all original.

It`s a drum,.....Hit It !!

.....76/#XK9207 Phonic Sound Machine D454/D-505 snares !i
Posted on 6 years ago
#15
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From OddBall

Keep in mind, 1968/69/70 are the only cataloged Jazz Fests with the throw two panels right of the badge. Available in black lacquer finish. I think this is in Those years and all original.

At least from the picture, the badge number is 61773, which makes me assume '64. Unless it was just pieced together bit by bit and isn't original.

Posted on 6 years ago
#16
Posts: 6524 Threads: 37
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From Whatarethese123

At least from the picture, the badge number is 61773, which makes me assume '64. Unless it was just pieced together bit by bit and isn't original.

64 is one panel, it does not change til 69 becomes a school fest in 71.

Looks all original to me from what I see.

It`s a drum,.....Hit It !!

.....76/#XK9207 Phonic Sound Machine D454/D-505 snares !i
Posted on 6 years ago
#17
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From OddBall

Keep in mind, 1968/69/70 are the only cataloged Jazz Fests with the throw two panels right of the badge. Available in black lacquer finish. I think this is in Those years and all original.

Where is this catalog of which you speak? Has somebody published a list of every Jazz Festival known and which panel the throw vs badge is on? I know there are people who do extraordinary data keeping as regards Ringo snares, but I don't know if it is done generally.

From Whatarethese123

At least from the picture, the badge number is 61773, which makes me assume '64. Unless it was just pieced together bit by bit and isn't original.

61773 is likely to be 64/65 according to Rick Gier, who has done an extraordinary data keeping and analysis exercise on serial numbers. It has made all online guides obsolete. But I don't believe he has panel specific Jazz Festival data.

ref: Richard E Gier, Serial Number Based Dating Guides for Vintage Ludwig Drums, Rebeats, 2013.

Posted on 6 years ago
#18
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I know I'll never find a matching Black Panther snare but I found a 64 Pioneer in black that never saw the light of day so I'm cool with that.

Posted on 6 years ago
#19
Posts: 6524 Threads: 37
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From zenstat

Where is this catalog of which you speak? Has somebody published a list of every Jazz Festival known and which panel the throw vs badge is on? I know there are people who do extraordinary data keeping as regards Ringo snares, but I don't know if it is done generally. 61773 is likely to be 64/65 according to Rick Gier, who has done an extraordinary data keeping and analysis exercise on serial numbers. It has made all online guides obsolete. But I don't believe he has panel specific Jazz Festival data. ref: Richard E Gier, Serial Number Based Dating Guides for Vintage Ludwig Drums, Rebeats, 2013.

I sorry 67 is when they started, stopped 71 then returned again I think.

First is 64, second is 67.

It`s a drum,.....Hit It !!

.....76/#XK9207 Phonic Sound Machine D454/D-505 snares !i
Posted on 6 years ago
#20
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