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Help With These Zildjians and Model Etc.

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From BosLover

First, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I think that my intermediate K with a golden bronze patina is a thing of beauty and not ugly at all. The main point of my post was to counter the argument that to return cymbals to their like new shiny state would more accurately give us the vintage sound that many of us crave. In truth even back in the day, most cymbals that were played and recorded had a patina, and were not pristine with a like new shine. Regardless of why that occured, that's the way they were played and that sound is what we hear today. To argue as I think someone did that they weren't cleaned due in part to laziness, or that not polishing them made younger drummers somehow feel cool, is silly. There were pleanty of prducts available that would do the job,they were just not marketed by drum companies. And no one, I repeat, no one, thought it was somehow cool to play cymbals without a shine. The reason they weren't cleaned is very simple. Musicians who played those cymbals were more interested in how they sounded than how they looked. They simply did not care if they weren't shiny. And, over time these cymbals took on a darkness and woodiness due mostly to extensive playing, and in part to the patina. Seems like some drummers today are more interested in how things look rather than sound. So maybe shiny cymbals make them feel cool, eh?

Not really I am going for a vintage new look. Not a vintage 54 year old look. I care how they sound but I am sorry there isn't enough crap built up on there to change the sound that much. I just would rather kill the "vintage" sound at the expense of it looking new and shiny. I personally would like to see some scientific evidence on the changes in pitch, weight and numerous other things to prove that it works.

Them are my thoughts. I bet the change even with 50 years isn't nearly as much as people think. The metal can only absorb so much dirt, grease anyway.

Posted on 12 years ago
#41
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From BosLover

First, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I think that my intermediate K with a golden bronze patina is a thing of beauty and not ugly at all. The main point of my post was to counter the argument that to return cymbals to their like new shiny state would more accurately give us the vintage sound that many of us crave. In truth even back in the day, most cymbals that were played and recorded had a patina, and were not pristine with a like new shine. Regardless of why that occured, that's the way they were played and that sound is what we hear today. To argue as I think someone did that they weren't cleaned due in part to laziness, or that not polishing them made younger drummers somehow feel cool, is silly. There were pleanty of prducts available that would do the job,they were just not marketed by drum companies. And no one, I repeat, no one, thought it was somehow cool to play cymbals without a shine. The reason they weren't cleaned is very simple. Musicians who played those cymbals were more interested in how they sounded than how they looked. They simply did not care if they weren't shiny. And, over time these cymbals took on a darkness and woodiness due mostly to extensive playing, and in part to the patina. Seems like some drummers today are more interested in how things look rather than sound. So maybe shiny cymbals make them feel cool, eh?

Well, I certainly enjoy the debate and hope you do too!

I know that any company that manufactures anything will market any version of their product that will make them money. So, with this said, why didn't the companies notice that everyone thought that the cymbals sounded better, dirty and uncleaned, and just start selling them that way? Why did they sell cymbals all shiny and brilliant? Why waste the time shining and polishing them before sending them to market? The cymbal makers had, argueably, some of the best ears on the planet and they deemed the cymbals musically ready to be sold, shiny, and brilliant. It was the drummers, the ones who would have to actually spend the time to keep them shiny, that determined that dirty, no effort, patina sounded better.

I agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I feel that our personal tastes are shaped by those that we admire, study, or somehow look up to for instruction or inspiration.

I do feel that younger people do think that shiny cymbals, holes in snare drums, holes in cymbals, hummingbird-heart-beat double kick patterns, rotating drum stages, or whatever else the popular drummers of the day are doing IS COOL. So, when the famous drummers of yesterday rocked on their filthy cymbals, the youngsters of that time felt that was cool.

In summation, I feel that the old school super-drummers didnt want to clean cymbals, they had the chops to get away with it, the fans/aspiring drummers fell in line by emulating their idols, and here we are today spending boat loads of money on dirty cymbals!

have a wonderful evening

drumhack singerCar Driving2ViolinPartyLoLoLoLo

"If it doesn't matter who wins or loses then why the hell do they keep score Peg? - Al Bundy
Posted on 12 years ago
#42
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From Mr.Lud

Not really I am going for a vintage new look. Not a vintage 54 year old look. I care how they sound but I am sorry there isn't enough crap built up on there to change the sound that much. I just would rather kill the "vintage" sound at the expense of it looking new and shiny. I personally would like to see some scientific evidence on the changes in pitch, weight and numerous other things to prove that it works. Them are my thoughts. I bet the change even with 50 years isn't nearly as much as people think. The metal can only absorb so much dirt, grease anyway.

Admittedly, the changes can be subtle, but subtlety has always been the main difference between the best musical instruments and mediocre ones. This sublety can not be measured, it must be heard and appreciated, like a fine wine. Can you prove scientifically that a Strad ssounds better then a lesser violin? The varnish, a coating, is a major source of their exquisite sounds.You can't measure the differences between a $300 acoustic guitar and a $3000 one. I've have heard cymbals before and after extensive cleaning and the difference is obvious to my ear.

Mark
BosLover
Posted on 12 years ago
#43
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From BosLover

Admittedly, the changes can be subtle, but subtlety has always been the main difference between the best musical instruments and mediocre ones. This sublety can not be measured, it must be heard and appreciated, like a fine wine. Can you prove scientifically that a Strad ssounds better then a lesser violin? The varnish, a coating, is a major source of their exquisite sounds.You can't measure the differences between a $300 acoustic guitar and a $3000 one. I've have heard cymbals before and after extensive cleaning and the difference is obvious to my ear.

Maybe so and I completly agree with you on the fact that the littlest of differences can make or break it. However maybe the patina is to much for the cymbal and makes it start to sound bad. I know that not all patina is helping the sound. I am only 18 ok so I do not have much experience in this area or with drums, or proper drumming or any of that. I am just learning. Personally I would like to clean it up and see the difference for myself. Maybe the patina for someone makes it sound good and for that other person it just isn't that right sound. Maybe I will prefer a clean cymbal and maybe I will mess up big time when I clean it. Only time will tell cause every cymbal is different.

Posted on 12 years ago
#44
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I think it was mentioned earlier........

Most old timers simply didn't clean their cymbals........

I was looking at some old pics of classic jazzers tonight,and very few had bright ,shiny cymbals.....

I still say..........it took 50 years of love/karma/soul to get that way,and in 5 minutes,you can take that all off...why do that?

Just like Antique Roadshow..........someone will polish up something,and then they tell them...

"if you hadn't polished it,it would be worth $25,000,now,it's worth $10,000".

"Always make sure your front bottom BD lugs clear the ground!"
Posted on 12 years ago
#45
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From blairndrums

I think it was mentioned earlier........Most old timers simply didn't clean their cymbals........I was looking at some old pics of classic jazzers tonight,and very few had bright ,shiny cymbals.....I still say..........it took 50 years of love/karma/soul to get that way,and in 5 minutes,you can take that all off...why do that?Just like Antique Roadshow..........someone will polish up something,and then they tell them..."if you hadn't polished it,it would be worth $25,000,now,it's worth $10,000".

I understand you are looking at it as a worth money stand point. I know sometimes that cleaning things is bad. I am saying though that mine don't have that old patina I watched my dad clean them shiny new. I also need to point out again that I am NOT selling these cymbals. I don't care if the whole drum set is worth 60k its the family kit. I feel the history isn't with the dirt and grime its with the actual interment itself.

Posted on 12 years ago
#46
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From drumhack

I know that any company that manufactures anything will market any version of their product that will make them money. So, with this said, why didn't the companies notice that everyone thought that the cymbals sounded better, dirty and uncleaned, and just start selling them that way?

Actually its been done. Sabian offered 100 earth aged (buried) cymbals)a few years ago. I think others have done it as well. And as you may have noticed most cymbals brands have at least one range of cymbals that are unfinished. The Bosphorus Turk line comes to mind. I'm not against shiny cymbals. I'm against cleaning vintage cymbals that have developed a patina and tonal uniqueness over decades. The only reason for cleaning is to make a cymbal pretty. I may be old fashioned, but when it comes to cymbals, sound trumps looks 100% of the time.

Mark
BosLover
Posted on 12 years ago
#47
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From BosLover

Actually its been done. Sabian offered 100 earth aged (buried) cymbals)a few years ago. I think others have done it as well. And as you may have noticed most cymbals brands have at least one range of cymbals that are unfinished. The Bosphorus Turk line comes to mind. I'm not against shiny cymbals. I'm against cleaning vintage cymbals that have developed a patina and tonal uniqueness over decades. The only reason for cleaning is to make a cymbal pretty. I may be old fashioned, but when it comes to cymbals, sound trumps looks 100% of the time.

But who is to know for sure which is better for that cymbal? Maybe it being clean is actually better sounding. I really think it depends on the cymbal because the patina isn't what changes the sound its the weight of the patina that is changing the sound.

Posted on 12 years ago
#48
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From Mr.Lud

But who is to know for sure which is better for that cymbal? Maybe it being clean is actually better sounding. I really think it depends on the cymbal because the patina isn't what changes the sound its the weight of the patina that is changing the sound.

Some in the patina camp state that the patina actually fills in the tonal grooves in the cymbal, thus altering the sound.

"If it doesn't matter who wins or loses then why the hell do they keep score Peg? - Al Bundy
Posted on 12 years ago
#49
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From Mr.Lud

But who is to know for sure which is better for that cymbal? Maybe it being clean is actually better sounding. I really think it depends on the cymbal because the patina isn't what changes the sound its the weight of the patina that is changing the sound.

Experience and good ears are the determining factors here. You're suggesting its something mysterious and unknown. It's not. The decision to polish or not polish is a personal preference. Whether they look or sound better shiny or not is a personal preference. Historically the overwhelming majority of drummers have opted not to shine their older cymbals. That's why almost all cymbals that are not relatively new have a patina. I am one of that majority. The few times I shined up older cymbals, I immediately regretted it once I heard the difference in sound. That was a very long time ago and I never made that mistake again.

Additionally, like all antiques, expensive vintage cymbals will likely retain more value if ageing is not removed.

Mark
BosLover
Posted on 12 years ago
#50
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