I agree it's a curiousity...I think a lot of the 18x14's were converting marching bass drums.

FWIW my Sky Blue bass drum is actually a 12x18.

AaahHA! So Ludwig made a 14 X 18 marching bass drum then? Thanks, mlvibes. That would explain things a bit better. I guess I was mistaken about the dimensions of your SBP's bass drum. Does wflkurt's silver sparkle Jazzette have a 14 X 18?

I seem to remember another 14 X 18 Jazzette report some time ago, too -just can't place it at the moment. Then again, people identify these bass drums as 14 X 18's a lot -when, in fact, they are 12 X 18's. I think sometimes people don't know better and measure from the ends of the hoops and then round it off to 14".

I also looked at the pictures of that natural maple Jazzette and one thing that stood out (to me) was the dark grain streaks on the bass drum shell. To me, that rings of a drum that had its wrap removed. A kit with a natural maple finish should be "streak-free". One with streaks would have been a better candidate for a wrapped finish. The badge numbers do indicate a rather close sequence, however. Could it have been a kit made from two matching toms and a re-worked/re-badged marching bass drum? It's very curious, indeed -especially with those dark streaks in the maple veneer of the bass drum.

If wflkurt's 197(4)? Jazzette turns out to indeed have a 14 X 18 bass drum, then I will assume that Ludwig MUST have made some kind of changeover. But, if it turns out that his bass drum is a 12 X 18, then that's going to make me believe the natural maple one isn't really legit and was probably converted from a marching bass drum. But, I reserve the right (especially at this point) to be wrong -AGAIN! :)

All I want is some kind of "official" word that Ludwig changed the depth dimension of the Jazzette bass drum sometime from __________? to _________? sometime around 1976, possibly. I have looked at the 1975 catalog ad and also the 1980 catalog ad, but IF they changed the dimension, then it HAD to have "officially" happened between 1976 and 1979 -I presume.

One other slight "curiosity" about that natural maple "Jazzette" is the serial numbers. The new owner lists the drums in order (12/14/18) and then lists the corresponding numbers( 985***/985***/101****). Yes, they ARE all numbers corresponding to drums made in 1976...BUT, why is there such a "jump" in numbering from toms to bass drum?

Maybe I'm way off bass *ahem* here. Maybe the 101**** number isn't the number on the bass drum's badge (I am just assuming it is according to the way they were listed).

I reeeally need to solve this mystery. ANY help in regards to this would be VERY MUCH appreciated! More "theories" would be appreciated, too. Excited

ttt for any catalog references from 76, 77, 78, 79 catalogs? Anyone? Please?Violin

I have a scan of a '76 catalog and there is no mention of a Jazzette kit. The smallest bass drum available for custom order is a 20x14.

When I used to teach band to grade schoolers, 18x14 was the most common bass drum size. I worked for an agency that put teachers in various schools during the week, so we had to carry those bass drums around. So our main office was filled with 18x14 bass drums of all makes and vintages, most of them beat to hell.

I have a feeling that someone wanting a Ludwig kit with an 18x12 bass drum was a very rare thing, definitely not enough demand to keep tons of them around. HOWEVER, since 18x14 is a pretty common marching size, they probably stocked hundreds of them for all the various schools that bought from Ludwig. I've seen a few 18x14's on ebay with no spurs or mounts...surely they were marchers. It's funny when someone feels they have found the score of a lifetime, a "virgin" 18 inch Ludwig bass drum, and they're scared to drill it because it's such a "holy grail." When in reality it's just a marching bass drum! It's likely many of these were converted into drumset bass drums both in and out of the company.

Here's a hypothetical situation - It's 1972, and someone custom orders a silver sparkle jazz kit with an 18" bass drum, but they don't specify that it has to be a Jazzette kit. Ludwig is currently out of 18x12 bass drums in silver sparkle, but has half a dozen 18x14 bass drums in silver sparkle that were made to be marching BD's. Put on some spurs and mount, and bam, hours of labor and lots of money saved by not needing to make an 18x12. And if someone custom ordered a downbeat kit with an 18" bass drum, then that would also be an 18x14, just because 14" is the depth of the downbeat BD.

So, my theory is that Ludwig had many more reasons to make 18x14's than 18x12's, and that is why we see a lot more of the deeper size around. I don't think the official Jazzette ever switched over to 18x14.

That makes total sense to me, mlvibes. But, I never realized that Ludwig 14 X 18 bass drums were that common. Of course, my world was always far removed from marching applications and the corresponding drums.

I think the maple kit is being called a Jazzette because of the 18" bass drum -even though there were no official Jazzette bass drums made with 14 X 18 shells. Since I am doing all this research, I was perplexed by the sudden appearance of a so-called Jazzette with a 14 X 18 -especially in light of the fact that every official Jazzette kit I have ever seen, found or read about ALWAYS specified the 12 X 18 as a kind of "prerequisite" requirement to claim that title -until they completely changed it in the later years, of course -but even that was officially put into print.

And, now thanks to your help, it seems to be confirmed that 1976 was the "cut-off" period for what we all know as the real Jazzette...and it's also very interesting that the badge numbers on that maple kit indicate drums from 1976! Burger Kin

Up until now, I thought there might be a chance that I would find a "missing link" from somewhere in the range of '76-'79 that would back up in some official way, an option for a 14 X 18 Jazzette bass drum. But, no...None of the ads ever showed an option for ordering a Jazzette with a different sized bass drum. It's true that a 14 X 18 bass drum could be ordered, but it had nothing to do with "Jazzette" option.

It's not really a big deal to call a kit with a 14 X 18 bass drum a "Jazzette" kit...unless you're a collector or a person writing on the subject! electricit :p

The verdict is in: It's NOT a Jazzette. It's a small kit with a 14 X 18 bass drum...probably sounds great, too. Dang! For a minute, there, I thought it might turn out to be one of the elusive "lacquer" Jazzettes that we've all been hoping to find. Ah, well...At least the article won't have to be completely re-written after all. Cool

I agree. I don't know where the line begins and ends with what we can "officially" consider a Jazzette outfit, but the 18x12 part does seem integral to me. Based on the fact that "choice of pearl finishes" does not appear until the 75? catalog, the only "real" Jazzette out of all of ours is the Black Cortex one. I guess I'm assuming by the mufflers next to the badge that it was made in '74 or later.

I guess the 18x12 size is the only thing that is unique to the Jazzette. The Gold Coast also came with this size, but was discontinued within a year of the Jazzette's introduction. The centralized rail mount is not unique to the Jazzette since it also appears on a Club Date kit.

Let's compare my SBP kit with Kurt's Silver Sparkle kit. Mine has an 18x12 bass drum but an off-center rail mount. Kurt's has an 18x14 bass drum but with a central rail mount. What's more important, the BD size or the rail location?

Coming from a purely musical standpoint, I'd say the 18x12 size has the most sway in the decision of what constitutes a Jazzette, since those 2 less inches of depth give it a unique sound, making it the most defining characteristic. But at the same time I don't have a problem with calling Kurt's set a Jazzette.

You could make a Bonham kit out of a 24, 14, 16, and 18, and I don't think anyone would really care or argue against calling it a Bonham kit, because it's so close. But that doesn't change the fact the Bonham played a 26!

It seems like this is all a lot of hogwash, but it will become more important as more and more people use the word "Jazzette" to help bring in the $ on ebay. Guitar players go to major extremes over what constitutes "correct," and it can often mean the difference of thousands of dollars.

That's a good point about the pearl finishes. In the purest sense, a REAL, real Jazzette HAS to be maple or mahogany lacquer. And, yet, we also know that even after Ludwig later expanded the Jazzette ad to include a wider variety of finish options, they also used the same exact photograph to represent two distinctly-different finishes!...In several catalogs, the finish of the kit in the ad-photo was refered to as "clear lacquer mahogany"...and then, a later catalog ('75) used the exact same photograph, but changed the wording to indicate the finish as being "Mahogany Cortex" -which is a plastic wrapped finish!

The '71 catalog ad is a bit confusing in this regard, too, because it kind of contradicts itself by stating the same, limited finish options -maple or mahogany, but then follows up by stating: “Thermo-Gloss ‘Natural Maple’ and ‘Walnut Stain’ finishes available at same prices as pearl”. I interpret that as meaning there WERE advertised options available at that time. But then, strangely, in the '73 catalog ad, those options are no longer advertised. DOH

I would be VERY curious to now get a look at the '68 and '69 catalog Jazzette ads to see how they listed the finishes in those years.

What would have been the point of limiting finish options on the Jazzette, anyway, I wonder? What could have been the reasoning behind that? Economy, perhaps? Maybe Ludwig wanted to try and skip the more labor-intensive production of wrapped finishes on these obviously rather "insignificant" selling kits? Theories about that, anyone?

In any case, I would be more lenient (so-to-speak) about sparkle finishes than I would a different-sized bass drum shell -and especially in regards to the Jazzette. All the badge numbers align on my '69 kit to within a few digits -even the chrome Supra is in sequence with the other wrapped drums and, since the Supra was the advertised Jazzette snare drum, I tend to think mine is an extremely "legit" Jazzette kit. My '67? No. As it turns out, THAT particular 12 X 18 bass drum is likely a "rogue". Actually, my plan for that kit, as of now, is to restore the original Downbeat bass drum and use it with the 12/14/Downbeat snare -and keep the 12 X 18 as an option. From what I have learned, this would be the better representation for those drums.

But my '69? Yes. I have no doubt in calling it a real Jazzette -maybe not in the purest purist sense, but it's a legitimate Jazzette all the same...mostly because that theory makes more sense than anything else! All the other possibilities for its existence are just too far out.

And, speaking of finishes, is there any catalog reference to a Vistalite Jazzette kit? I KNOW I saw a picture once that showed what was being called a Jazzette and it was definitely a Vistalite...seems like it was a red, white and blue striped one or maybe it was a Tequila Sunrise one...but I have not seen a reference to one in any catalogs so far. Clues, anyone?

Could you (or someone with access) look up the scans of the ads from the '68and '69 catalogs for me? I would really appreciate it. Once I get hold of those years' catalog ads, I think I will have covered all the years that the Jazzette (as we know it) was being offered...and maybe something "new" will be uncovered in them!

Thanks

P.S. Did you notice that the black Cortex kit 's 8 X 12 tom is equipped with LARGE Classic lugs -as opposed to the usual small Classic lugs? Weird, huh?

I guess I am going to have to make a real measurement of my bass drum now. I think I assumed that it was a 14x18 because it looked that way to me. I will try to make a true measurement tonight and report my info. My serial numbers also seem to put mine in the 1974-ish area. The granitone interiors would indicate that as well. The set sure does sound nice though!

I know that Cherie Whilloughby had the red/clear/blue vistalite jazzette. I remember it vividly because I had a quadra-plus set in that same finish. I know someone that has the mahogany jazzette from around 1967 right out of tha catalog. Unfortunately he lives far awy from me now and I don't have a number for him. His set has white interiors and the finish is like the one found on cub scout Ludwig parade drums.

I have a feeling that Ludwig would make anything if asked. It sure sounds like it. I also saw a guy once with a 1969 set of Ludwigs in that mahogany finish. His set was a hollywood set like the let it be kit. I have never seen a set in those sizes with that finish again.

It sure would be nice to see what really went on back then. I think somewhere in my saved pics I have a pic of an 18" Ludwig bass drum from the 60's wraped in mod orange. I can't remember if it was legit or not.