I did email the webmaster ; all to nought; that was about a year ago. it was about as fruitfull as trying to shovel jello with a fork---talk to him about it. The funny thing is, that cheap Japanese drums are pretty much the same price as English or German drums, so it is you who are missing out. Most American drum enthusiasts wouldn't know an Ajax from a Bollero, so it is about the same as confusing a brass woodworking screw with a nail. For that reason , fine handmade European drums are often cheaper than mass produced Asian stuff, so no-one has been overspending on these ***els.--- edit time--how ridiculously politically correct can you be? my mistake a-holes ; i will rephrase ; no one has been overspending on these wonderfull masterpieces of handcraftsmanship. there you go , no censorship required; doesn't that make your job so much easier.----now, how about opening up another forum?

The vitriol & snobbery of this thread is surprising & disappointing. I thought this forum was for learning & exchanging ideas, tips for repair, & showcasing the "World of Drums". All parts of the globe have something to offer, & each has it's own aesthetic, & place in the economic hierarchy of collecting & playing. I've found good advice, & ingenious ideas coming from all quarters of the collectors sphere. Whether the categories get mixed or separated, I see no need for bashing & denigration.

just separate so-called MIJ from European and all will be well. is that so hard to do? the funny thing is----there is this immediate separation---almost assumed; U.S. drums and then non U.S. drums. why does this separation exist ?

I am surprised at some of the tone of this thread,this forum has the least amount of elitism of any forum I visit.

I did not have a great appreciation for vintage asian drums,

until I came to this forum.

As far as separation goes,the reason that the U.S.A drums are in thier own section is IMO,

1. They are the most desirable vintage drums,in or out of the U.S.,look at the demand and pricing overseas

2.They have high visibility,in the 60's the U.S.A had the strongest manufacturing

economy in the world,and there are a lot of these drums left in the U.S.A,and they did find their way to the rest of the world also.

3.People have been collecting U.S.A drums for the longest.

I think that if this forum started separating the non U.S.A drums into different categories it would fragment and weaken the unity on the forum.

I like it when guys like Dule and Gilnar post about the eastern European drums,I learn something new,and I appreciate their resourcefulness when putting these drums back to working order, it was not so long ago that the people in these countries could not obtain higher end drums.

I like the camaraderie and respect that the people on this forum show each other,no matter what kind of drums they like or can afford.

it's not like the "non USA" section is over run with new threads on a daily basis so that you'd have a hard time wading through it all to find just the Euro posts is it? Seriously, I think this is an imaginary problem. Just don't read the threads about MIJ drums if you don't want to, simple.

You guy`s are Right,...should at least be three catagories,..yup, and it should be labled correctly

Ludwig,...USA

Sonor,...Eu.

All the rest !!

Like others I'm saddened by this. I think we have a passion in common, but maybe here it is out of control. I agree that there isn't enough traffic for a European section.

I often read threads here that I have no knowledge of the drums discussed, and I would have no interest in wanting to own the drums involved. I can none the less enjoy the read and appreciate the knowledge and work involved. Arguments along the lines of "my drums are better than your drums", are pretty meaningless.

Another spot: what if a drum in regard of a post is unknown first and posted in the European section? - But finally it's a MIJ drum?

Then someone should push it into the other section?

I'm from Germany and for me it's OK to just have two sections, with a healthy mixture of Asian and European posts in the same line.

I love my three (MIJ) Star drumsets - and the one (European) Premier as well.

And I surely disagree with the extensive marketing/ copying of MIJ companies in the early 70s, resulting in the fall of such great names as e.g. Rogers and Slingerland. But that's the given past.

We live a life of luxury in this forum! - Compared to today's drums where only the unreachable expensive kits still are made ... in USA ... in UK ... in Germany ... in Australia ... etc. - but mainly, it's all Made in China (... so, finally, we'd need a forth category in twenty years?).

Ralf

If this were an automobile forum; would it make sense to have a U.S. car category and then , all the rest? Admittedly, automobiles are more complicated than drums but in the long history of drummaking, each centre of production has evolved aspects of the craft of drummaking that stamps it with regionality and the pride of their craft. The thing that is missing in the jumbled forum is respect . Respect for the makers of Premier, respect for the makers of Trixon, respect for the makers of Duban and on and on. The difference between the craftsman making drums in Europe and the industrialists making drums in the orient is ; while the Europeans were working from a tradition of stellar musical instrument making and yes, might have been influenced through competion,employee transfer or small scale thieving of designs, they were generally innovators and their intent was to produce the best that was possible under their specific conditions of production. They were not copiers, they were craftsmen(and women).

Oriental drums began as copies. Japan had a clear and simple program of undermining established western companies by offering cheap consumer goods to gullible westerners . They were not designers and craftsmen of musical instruments but designers and craftsmen of economic control and that was stated by key Japanese politicians not long after W.W.2. In this , MIJ drums hold a clear place in drum history but due to the intent under which they were mass produced , with little in the way of any conscience, with regard to business practices, pollution,labour ethics,environmental stewardship,energy conservation, raw material acquisition and on and on; it is not a proud history and just like the 7 or so brands from England, Germany, Hungary or any other country, they deserve recognition in their own category but not muddled in with instruments , the best of which are at least as good as any drum made anywhere in any time.

Noble European craftsmen,... thieving conniving Asians making copies for a public too stupid to know the difference. (copying designs, undercutting competition),..Who ever heard of such a thing among Capitalist ? Your tortured logic is more of a scree than an honest history.