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Were the Japanese Smarter Than Us

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just don't mention those Rogers B&B lugs, rough as guts Ludwig edges, splitting onyx wraps, comically drilled Slingerland badge holes...;)

Of course I love all those kits and some MIJ stuff (Hoshino springs to mind) was pretty poor. But some of it, frankly, is better screwed together and more consistent. Not as desirable, I agree

From The Ploughman

I have seen plenty of wrinkled, bubbled, pulled, etc. Cheap is cheap. It can be very affordable when new, but .... built on the cheap never rises above that. Not all MIJ drums were made like that. Some were better quality. Some were well made. Corners were cut in a lot of different ways to make them more affordable. I bought a set of Stewarts once in WMP. They were decent drums. They sounded decent. They didn't sound like Rogers. But they were decent. All of $64.00 I paid for them. But the wrap was stuck to the shell. Not well, but not taped on either. I left a set of Tempro drums at a practice place a few years ago. They might still be there. They weren't as good as the Stewarts. And they never sounded like Rogers.There are cheap ways to get a car painted. When you are done, no one will need telling you did it on the cheap.

Andrew

Golden Curtain
www.myspace.com/garagelandnz
Posted on 8 years ago
#11
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From The Ploughman

I have seen plenty of wrinkled, bubbled, pulled, etc. Cheap is cheap. It can be very affordable when new, but .... built on the cheap never rises above that. Not all MIJ drums were made like that. Some were better quality. Some were well made. Corners were cut in a lot of different ways to make them more affordable. I bought a set of Stewarts once in WMP. They were decent drums. They sounded decent. They didn't sound like Rogers. But they were decent. All of $64.00 I paid for them. But the wrap was stuck to the shell. Not well, but not taped on either. I left a set of Tempro drums at a practice place a few years ago. They might still be there. They weren't as good as the Stewarts. And they never sounded like Rogers.There are cheap ways to get a car painted. When you are done, no one will need telling you did it on the cheap.

I don't know much about these MIJ drums and only can go by what I see in the two kits I own. My bdp kit has no wrinkles or bubbles and the wrap looks very nice. I know you're a big Rogers guy and I too have owned many Rogers kits and gigged with all of them. Built better, probably, better hardware, of course, cost more, most definitely, sound better, possibly, but not necessarily. Not only have I gigged with my Ludwigs and Rogers, but I have recordings of practically every kit I've owned, so I have a source of reference when I get a different kit. I loved my Ludwigs and Rogers and would buy another, but my MIJ kits sound as good, I just call it like I see it.

Posted on 8 years ago
#12
Posts: 545 Threads: 67
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My two cents (on basis of a lot of experimenting):

Determinants of (sound) quality in measurable dimensions like resonace, volume, ease of tuning, etc. in an estimated order of importance (most important first).

-TUNING

-heads (single/double ply, pre-muffled, etc.)

-roundness/flatness of shell/bearing-edge/hoops

-way of hanging/standing the drum (use of floating floortom feet for instance)

-material of shell

-type of bearing edge

-thickness of shell/shell construction

Determinants of (sound) quality in more subjective dimensions:

-TUNING

-wood/metal/other material

-construction type (ply, stave, etc.)

-wood species

So, what I mean to say is:

If a drum is in-round and has good edges and hoops, it can, with a certain selection of heads and decent TUNING, be made to sound very good.

And I'll say something daring now that'll stir some people: All the rest (nationality, brand, "high-end artisan" stuff, etc) is dogmatic mumbo jumbo. Nice to occupy the mind, but mumbo jumbo nonetheless. I have 6 kits and have had (and worked on) many more. All of them (high-end, low end, no end at all) were made to sound great and each of them could be my only kit if I had to choose one and stick to it the rest of my life.

Of course there's the question of durability. Sturdy built drums with high crome plating etc. will last longer and will hold up better in the hands of touring drummers.

Vintage and custom drum projects:
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php...2305272732%3A6
Posted on 8 years ago
#13
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From bartw

My two cents (on basis of a lot of experimenting):Determinants of (sound) quality in measurable dimensions like resonace, volume, ease of tuning, etc. in an estimated order of importance (most important first).-TUNING-heads (single/double ply, pre-muffled, etc.)-roundness/flatness of shell/bearing-edge/hoops-way of hanging/standing the drum (use of floating floortom feet for instance)-material of shell-type of bearing edge-thickness of shell/shell constructionDeterminants of (sound) quality in more subjective dimensions:-TUNING-wood/metal/other material-construction type (ply, stave, etc.)-wood speciesSo, what I mean to say is:If a drum is in-round and has good edges and hoops, it can, with a certain selection of heads and decent TUNING, be made to sound very good.And I'll say something daring now that'll stir some people: All the rest (nationality, brand, "high-end artisan" stuff, etc) is dogmatic mumbo jumbo. Nice to occupy the mind, but mumbo jumbo nonetheless. I have 6 kits and have had (and worked on) many more. All of them (high-end, low end, no end at all) were made to sound great and each of them could be my only kit if I had to choose one and stick to it the rest of my life.Of course there's the question of durability. Sturdy built drums with high crome plating etc. will last longer and will hold up better in the hands of touring drummers.

Very good points, but let's not forget the person playing the drums, I've heard plenty of great kits sound terrible in the wrong hands.

Posted on 8 years ago
#14
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From The Ploughman

I have seen plenty of wrinkled, bubbled, pulled, etc. Cheap is cheap. It can be very affordable when new, but .... built on the cheap never rises above that. Not all MIJ drums were made like that. Some were better quality. Some were well made. Corners were cut in a lot of different ways to make them more affordable. I bought a set of Stewarts once in WMP. They were decent drums. They sounded decent. They didn't sound like Rogers. But they were decent. All of $64.00 I paid for them. But the wrap was stuck to the shell. Not well, but not taped on either. I left a set of Tempro drums at a practice place a few years ago. They might still be there. They weren't as good as the Stewarts. And they never sounded like Rogers.There are cheap ways to get a car painted. When you are done, no one will need telling you did it on the cheap.

Cheap is in the eye of the beholder.

Posted on 8 years ago
#15
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Drums are really just big dumb tubs of wood. Heads and tuning are where probably 90% of their timbre comes from. Cheap kits usually can sound great if they're in decent shape, modern or vintage.

And lots of people hear with their eyes. Every single drum that Ludwig wrapped in the 60's was horribly out of round. Even Steve Maxwell describes the signature vintage Ludwig sound as a dry thwack, and still no one has any trouble selling Keystone kits.

Now, there was an awful lot of cheap hardware from Japan in the 60's that I can't begin to defend. Flimsy mounts and flaking chrome galore...

60's Gretsch Progressive Jazz Green Sparkle
'61 Slingerland Bop Kit Sea Green Rewrap
Round Badge Bop Kit Clone Red Sparkle
'67 Pearl President 13/16/22 Red Oyster Pearl
Posted on 8 years ago
#16
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From infiniteninjas

Drums are really just big dumb tubs of wood. Heads and tuning are where probably 90% of their timbre comes from. Cheap kits usually can sound great if they're in decent shape, modern or vintage.And lots of people hear with their eyes. Every single drum that Ludwig wrapped in the 60's was horribly out of round. Even Steve Maxwell describes the signature vintage Ludwig sound as a dry thwack, and still no one has any trouble selling Keystone kits.Now, there was an awful lot of cheap hardware from Japan in the 60's that I can't begin to defend. Flimsy mounts and flaking chrome galore...

A lot of guys think all hardware from the 60's was flimsy compared to modern hardware. i agree with what you said about heads and tuning, but the edges factor in as well. It's also true what you said about Ludwig, I've had many kits that sounded very boxy. I never had any issues with my Rogers kits and they are fine instruments, but I can produce as good a sound from my MIJ kits.

Posted on 8 years ago
#17
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Everthing that bartw says it´s the truth! I am with you Buddy:-)

regards

Christian

Posted on 8 years ago
#18
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I quit drinking Koolaid a long time ago.

Rogers Drums Big R era 1975-1984 Dating Guide.
http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=24048
Posted on 8 years ago
#19
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From johnnyringo

I never had any issues with my Rogers kits and they are fine instruments, but I can produce as good a sound from my MIJ kits.

Day 3: I have been sitting here responding to this thread, then erasing my answers, binging on popcorn, alternating between a tab showing the Wiki definition of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" & trying to figure out how to build a "hockey pool" type spreadsheet to figure out who is going to defend each side of the age old question of "Stencil Kit vs US made drums". Anybody know how to use Lotus?

1964 Ludwig Champagne Super Classic
1970 Ludwig Blue Oyster Super Classic
1977 Rogers Big R Londoner 5 ebony
1972/1978 Rogers Powertone/Big R mix ebony
60's Ludwig Supersensitive
Pearl B4514 COB snare ( the SC snare)
Pearl Firecracker
PJL WMP maple snare
Odds & Sods

Sabians, Paistes, Zildjians, Zyns, UFIPs, MIJs etc
Item may be subject to change!
Posted on 8 years ago
#20
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