Priced to keep

So, a clone is or is not a clone? If you use a five ply maple birch shell and meticulously recreate the reinforcing rings, the edge profile, the bed profile... and say pull finish from a floor tom to wrap it with, and use all the parts from one rogers Dyna-Sonic so as to make the drum as original as possible is it then not a clone? or does it become a real Dyna-Sonic because one faithfully executed every possible detail as it should have been done. .. in my book... it is still a clone, even if that guy retired from the factory. A rewrap doesn't always devalue a drum. Seldom does it result in value equal to an original piece in perfect condition. It can be a better value than the drum left untouched. or not so much. It really depends on the piece. That piece has been fiddled with more than was necessary. The simple fact it is rewrapped isn't the only issue.

Ploughman! Over the years I've come to respect your knowledge with vintage Rogers. Yet, I'm still having a hard time seeing, other than the wrap, what else is wrong with this drum. The seller states everything (not including the wrap, even thought it is Rogers) is original. Are you saying this is a clone shell, manufactured to look like a Rogers? Are all the other hardware items not original as well? I have absolutely no interest in this drum. In fact, the auction has already ended. Can you outline exactly all the issues with this drum?

-Mark

"Most likely, this is the only one of like condition in existence .... I don't ever recall seeing another w/ orig wrap like it !! "

BS

COMPARE SOME SIGNIFICANT FEATURES OF THIS SNARE:

"The faded, damaged wrap was removed & a brand new piece stored from Rogers original wrap stock was perfectly installed...

So ..... this beauty could pass for a floor sample in the day.... you'll never find that anywhere .... ever! haha"

More nonsense. How was wrap "damaged" ?

Faded is one thing.

The wording of listing and use of the 'ha ha' & exclamations spell shister in my book.

Mark!

All your points are well taken. Thanks for weighing in.

-Mark

A very good respected friend of mine who sells top grade drums mainly premier spoke to the guy over this drum. Mentioned there was a discussion on VDF about the snare drum, here was his reply to my friend. .....The wrap sections were bought at Chicago drum show from major west coast authority. Most idiots have never seen one of these in person and the wrap was never reproduced. I sold 2 others recovered from the same partial wrap pieces for 3K and the buyers examined in person upon delivery BEFORE paying. They were thrilled. You have to understand that many old people on the forum are self proclaimed experts who don't even own these items and have never seen the items. If these have nothing to say good about anything/one, then they have to gossip just to keep their self proclaimed status. No one has contacted me with any questions because they don't want to be embarrassed with idiot questions.

I have had as many as 70+ Rogers drum kits ... now down to about 30 and even more dynas. I have 20 yrs experience restoring and i'm well known for accuracy and quality.

I appreciate the heads up. You should understand, that it is human nature to want something you can't afford or are just too cheap to pay for .... so they justify their inadequacies by creating the scenarios that denagrade the values of the item. It's a shame they can't afford it but i have more into the gem than the cheap-ass offers some people think I am stupid. or desperate enough to accept.

It is totally Rogers, unaltered except for new Rogers wrap, expertly installed.....

I don't imply or mean to state in any way the drum is a clone. If the post was read for the specific question I believe it was clear enough what I meant. When does an assemblage of parts become original? The answer....and there is only one... A drum is original when it is as assembled in the factory. Fifty years down the road, it can be original and covered in manure or in pristine condition.

Hoops replaced, not original, even though parts may be period correct.

Throw replaced, not original.

Rewrapped, is not original. Even though a new sheet of the original wrap is used, the item is now rewrapped. The badges are removed, the grommet reset......... the drum is now, and forever, a rewrap. And quite frankly, I don't give a rats ass what credentials a person may have.

I purchased a 1414 floor from this seller four years ago. I don't have a problem with my purchase, I was and am quite happy with it.

Having followed many of the auctions of this seller over the years there are some things that are ever present in the auctions. Parts are replaced to enhance value. A fairly common practice. Honesty in disclosure demands a person say so in a sale. Most people aren't honest in this regard. Many consider that it doesn't matter. With something like a Dyna-Sonic... it matters.

The attitude of being too cheap, or too poor... for what I am about to say, I make no apologies. I have no respect whatsoever for the elitist arrogance displayed in that response. While not to me personally, it is very personal to anyone who would dare to question his own presentation. As if no one has the right to question. You follow a man like that and you end up drinking the Kool Aid of death in a jungle. Always question. Where honesty abides, the questions are answered. Where honesty is absent, you will always be met with rhetoric and How dare you peasants question my authority.

There is nothing present in the auction, or in the past practices of the seller to lead anyone to believe this original drum is original. It is a rewrapped shell with a collection of parts that are all Dyna-Sonic in origin. That's what you can know you will receive. Original Rogers period parts. Any other expectation is a blind hope. Originality is gone. A born again virgin is just someone who has sworn off sex for a while. Over the course of months this has been for sale... it was revealed the interior was refinished as well.

I also don't apologize for the knowledge I have accrued over the years. It cost me a lot of money, and the investment of a great deal of time. But if at any time I try to sell you something that has been cobbled together and call it Original, when it is plainly not, please do bring me to task for it.

Ploughman...

Thank you for your excellent response about all this. Because I haven't followed this drum every time it was listed, I was not aware of past posted pictures and text. You've cleared all this up completely for me. Thanks!

-Mark

My own Steel Gray Ripple Dyna-Sonic...

Was rescued from Ft. Meyers Florida. We all know very few drums travel through that town without being changed by it. A person could live in a Nevada Brothel for a year without participating... just don't put that on an application for Pastor. So, is my drum original? I doubt it. Although as I have examined it... all of them appear to be correct for the serial number and year this was made. The shell and wrap, grommet and badge do not appear in any way to have been fiddled with. The frame is correct for the drum along with the wireset that is on it. Heads don't count so much and aren't being included in the assessment. All of the parts on the drum are correct for it. So as far as I know... it is original. No swapping. No funny business. On a Three thousand dollar snare drum... that is important. It was purchased for me for a bit less than that. Nevertheless, value of that one item... stands at 2500+. It will not be sold as long as I am alive and able to hang onto it. I might even go so far as to say it is the best sounding drum I own. Some things can pass through Ft. Meyers Florida without being mucked up.

I have COB 1171, I replaced the lugs with Jim Petty reproductions, I replaced the tension rods with period correct Rogers, some of the washers I am doubtful of. I used new stainless steel slotted round head machine screws and appropriate to the original SS washers to secure the new reproduction lugs to the shell. The Hoops, throw, dampener and butt are original. The slotted round head fasteners for the pinch plates are ... SS modern replacements identical to the originals. The pinch on the throw is a home made part. Value... about 700.00. A pristine original you cannot play...might get a couple hundred more. There were after all.... less than 300 of these drums in the beginning, and perhaps less than 200 now survive. It is Restored. I would never try to pass it off as original.

Ploughman! An excellent read. Thanks!

-Mark