Sorry, looks like the searches are "sessions" that timeout. Try the following link and instructions:

1. Open link below

2. Select Search Marks

3. Select Basic Word Mark Search (New User)

4. Enter A Zildjian & Cie in the Search Term field

5. Hit Submit Query

You should get 3 records found.

http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/index.jsp

Scott

Been there, done that 3X. Same result.

I read a lot. Unfortunatly since my computer crashed, I have not been successful loading my modern drummer archive, so I might have a hard time finding the direct quote if there is one at all.

A. Zildjian & CIE stood for Aram, not Avedis. It was first used when Aram Zildjian produced cymbals in Romania in the early 1900’s before he came to the USA to teach Avedis the art of cymbal making. When Avedis Zildjian acquired the A. Zildjian (Avedis) Trademarks in the early 1950’s, the A&CIE remained with K Zildjian. It was acquired with along with the K trademarks later (different date ranges given from 1968-early 70's).

I have a 21" Zildjian ride that has both the 3 dot '60's stamp and the Zildjian CIE stamp. It is in brilliant finish and is a medium weight. Sounds nice.

Not sure if this will work, but see if you can see the 2 attachments that show what I'm seeing.

Scott

I got it this time. You're right:

http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/Trademark%20Electronic%20Search%20System%20_TESS_.htm

That's the main one I was looking at!

Scott

So with this in mind, we need to explain how early 1960's cymbals ended up as "new" brilliant types in the early 1970's. Because its very apparent to me at least, that the manufacturing characteristics on some of these cymbals, such as the one I presented here, are very far removed from early 1970's type characteristics. The difference between those two is quite stark and readily apparent.

It would at least appear that they were using some of their older cymbals that were still in stock from their inventory, some from them from as far back as the early 1960's. These likely were used on the first ones made bearing this trademark. They made them into brilliants, stamped them with this new trademark until their older inventory was exhausted, and from that point made new cymbals to continue the series from there. If so then anyone lucky enough to score one of these early releases got a bonus in that these were thinner and better sounding than their later counterparts. And that also might help explain why these thinner ones are rarely seen amongst the cymbals with this trademark taken as a whole. The vast majority of the A. Zildjain & Cie. cymbals that we usually see are plainly machine hammered; top-side hammering only, and are much heavier than the earlier ones. And these characteristics are consistent with other cymbals that were manufactured in that same era. So from that perspective this theory would seem to be the only one that would make some sense out of this otherwise confusing picture. So thanks for providing us with that information.

As I said above-

"I'm not questioning whether it is a 60's cymbal or not. It could have been produced in the 60's and sitting in the vault. But it did not get stamped and leave the factory until 1968 or later. It wouldn't surprise me if they had to stamp some just to register the trademark and then didn't 'ramp up production' until the 70's when they introduced the Brilliants."

Yeah, I dig.