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A Star is Born...again

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Hi,

I'm new to the forum and relatively new to the world of vintage drums, but the forum has already been a valuable source of information and inspiration, and for that I thank you...I think. Rabbit holes like this one can have adverse side-effects.

Anyway, I am a teacher. With school out for summer and my wife visiting her mother for a few weeks my plan was to find a vintage kit of some kind and spend my "free weeks" restoring it. So I widened my CL search area and as luck would have it, I found two kits I could not pass up. The first is a one-owner 69 Ludwig Standard Downbeat kit in Avocado Strata that had been stored for most of it's life. The downside is...who am I kidding, there is no real downside, but the kit came to me so nice I really only had to dust it off and put new heads on it and I was looking for a real resto project. Did I mention that the avocado kit came with matching snare and an extra Standard aluminum snare, and nearly all the original hardware? If it makes you feel better I did pay the full $750 asking price.Violin

The very next day an ad for a vintage Slingerland set showed up on the local CL. The pics were dark, out of focus, and dated 2014, but one could see that it was a clear acrylic set, not my first choice of materials but the set also included a pretty rare Arbiter snare, some decent cymbals and stands, and a like new Roc-n-Soc throne, all for $500. After some quick searching on this forum I found that Slingerland only made clear acrylic (phantom) sets for a year or so, and the only one for sale on eBay was in Germany and they were asking $3450 for it. On comparing pictures, the one on CL seemed to have the same lugs etc. Although I knew I'd have some "splainin" to do with my wife, I answered the ad right away.

If you are getting ready to have the forum monitor move my thread to the vintage USA drum section stay tuned...

Turns out, the only thing(s) Slingerland about the set were the snare stand and one of the tom heads. Wah Wah Wah...but when I considered all the other gear that was included, it was still a pretty great deal. Once I got it home and inspected it more carefully I found that it had Star embossed on the tom mount. Once again the VD forum was super helpful as I began to learn about Star and the whole Japanese "stencil" drum saga, and how to restore an acrylic set in general. Special thanks to forum member Ralf who went out of his way to help identify the kit and the year it was made (to the extent that it is possible to nail down). Because the badges were removed (I think to dupe the previous owner or myself into thinking it was a more valuable Slingerland) it is hard to say if was badged Star or Werco or ??? originally, but thanks again to Ralf who is sending me reproduction Star badges, so if you are still with me, and you are old enough to get the movie reference, the dorky title of my post finally makes sense.

The 1972ish Star clear acrylic kit has been taken apart down to the screws, polished, repaired, and reassembled. A job that I underestimated completely...my hands and arms are so tired. I typed this post with my feet. The acrylic and hardware cleaned up great and they sound BIG. The final touch will be the badges that Ralf is sending from Germany. My wife returns Thursday so I have just enough time to clean up my mess and do a few of the things on her project list.

Here are a few before and after pics of the kit...Sorry, I tried to rotate them but failed.

3 attachments
Stop stringing and tuning your instrument, make music now.
-fortune cookie

Vintage Drums:
1970ish Ludwig Standard Avocado Strata downbeat
1970ish Star Acrylic 22,12,13,16
1950’s Gretsch tympani 26.5
19?? Sonor roto-tympani 13x12
70’s Ludwig Standard alum 14x5 snare
90’s Arbiter Adv. Tuning 12x5 snare
90’s Ludwig blackrolite 14x5 snare

Modern Drums:
Erie Drums 1-ply sycamore shell kit 18,10,13
Erie 1-ply maple 14x5 snare
Tama S.L.P. Acrylic 14x6.5 snare
Posted on 7 years ago
#1
Posts: 6523 Threads: 37
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You couldn`t get more teardrop wannabe if they tried,.....and your badges are coming from Germany,...

It`s a drum,.....Hit It !!

.....76/#XK9207 Phonic Sound Machine D454/D-505 snares !i
Posted on 7 years ago
#2
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Simply beautiful! I am an avid Star collector and fan of Ralf as well. Nice going! Wow!

Brian

Just a drummer who loves all things about vintage drums! Nothing more, nothing less.
Posted on 7 years ago
#3
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P.S. Yep, I got your reference. Barbra and Kris, the remake. Okay movie. That was the one that Elvis wanted to do but, the colonel wouldn't let him unless he got top billing. Too bad. Elvis might have been "stellar". I was an English teacher. LOL! Sorry.

Brian

Just a drummer who loves all things about vintage drums! Nothing more, nothing less.
Posted on 7 years ago
#4
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Thanks Brian! I'm a physics teacher but married to an English teacher. I realized the other day that twenty years under the same roof has not helped my sentence structure one bit, nor could she tell you the first thing about Newton's laws. Life is strange that way.

AL

____________

-69 Ludwig Standard Avocado Strata downbeat 12,14,20 w/matching snare

-72ish Star clear acrylic 12,13,16,22

-Erie Drums (not vintage but still old school) steam bent solid shell Sycamore 3 piece 10,13,18 (made by local craftsman Ian Witt) w/14x5 solid maple snare also made by Ian.

-late 90's 12' Arbiter Advanced Tuning snare.

-late 60's Ludwig Standard AL snare.

-57 Gretch 25.5' Timpani (rescued from a scrap yard)

Stop stringing and tuning your instrument, make music now.
-fortune cookie

Vintage Drums:
1970ish Ludwig Standard Avocado Strata downbeat
1970ish Star Acrylic 22,12,13,16
1950’s Gretsch tympani 26.5
19?? Sonor roto-tympani 13x12
70’s Ludwig Standard alum 14x5 snare
90’s Arbiter Adv. Tuning 12x5 snare
90’s Ludwig blackrolite 14x5 snare

Modern Drums:
Erie Drums 1-ply sycamore shell kit 18,10,13
Erie 1-ply maple 14x5 snare
Tama S.L.P. Acrylic 14x6.5 snare
Posted on 7 years ago
#5
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Here's a weird thing...The tom mount tube is freakishly long on this kit, and heavy, made of soft steel. It extends 16' or so into the drum when it is locked in at my playable height. My inner nerd knows that the long heavy tube makes the entire tom structure more stable by increasing the moment of inertia... effectively spreading mass away from the fulcrum, so it takes a larger torque to twist it. A great idea if you don't want the acrylic shell to experience destructive forces as the tom structure is torqued by the impact of the drum sticks. The question is...did the Japanese make the tube long for that reason or was it just serendipity?

AL

Again sorry, I can't figure out how to rotate the pic.

1 attachments
Stop stringing and tuning your instrument, make music now.
-fortune cookie

Vintage Drums:
1970ish Ludwig Standard Avocado Strata downbeat
1970ish Star Acrylic 22,12,13,16
1950’s Gretsch tympani 26.5
19?? Sonor roto-tympani 13x12
70’s Ludwig Standard alum 14x5 snare
90’s Arbiter Adv. Tuning 12x5 snare
90’s Ludwig blackrolite 14x5 snare

Modern Drums:
Erie Drums 1-ply sycamore shell kit 18,10,13
Erie 1-ply maple 14x5 snare
Tama S.L.P. Acrylic 14x6.5 snare
Posted on 7 years ago
#6
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Hey Mitch,

Thanks for rotating the pics. Somewhere in the process of going from iphone to gmail to my PC the file gets "grumpy" and won't allow changes to be saved. It works on my trusty mac, but that is in FLA with my wife until Thursday.

Your question about the tom L-arm direction effecting resonance/sustain is an interesting one. My first thought is placebo effect, but hmmmmmm...

Typically we think of the resonant characteristics of an object as being determined entirely by it's construction and the environment that it is oscillating in. If you replicate every minute detail of a Stradivarius violin and play it in the same room, it should sound like the original. When you connect objects together, like the tom drum to the L-arm to the mount to the bass drum, they become one oscillating system whose overall resonance and sustain is a complex combination of the vibrational characteristics of the parts. In the case of the tom drum/L-arm/mount/bass drum system the connecting points between them play a big role in how well the vibrational energy is transferred/shared between the parts in the system as well. If the connections are tight then the parts act more like a whole, if they are loose the opposite is true, and dampening occurs. So let's assume the connections are all tight with minimal dampening effect. In this system the two main oscillators are the tom and bass drum, the tom being the source and the bass acting as a passive radiator, the other heavy steel parts do not resonate or sustain much on their own.

So lets do a series of Gedankens (thought experiments)...

First, strip it down to just the tom and the L-arm.

Attach the up pointing L-arm securely to an immovable object, attach tom drum securely to the L-arm, have your robot drummer hit drum with a precise impulse, measure the sustain. Repeat for down pointing L-arm. The only physical difference in the trials is that a small section of the steel L-arm is under compression due to the weight of the tom in trial one, and it experiences tensile (pulling) stress in trial two. I can't imagine that would have any noticeable effect, and to rule it out completely we could set the whole thing up with the drum heads facing sideways rather than up and down. If we do that, trial one looks just like trial two viewed from behind. (Note: You may have to reprogram your robot to use Taiko techniques.)

Now let's include the tom mount...

Stick the tom mount down into the immovable object, attach the up pointing L-arm and tom drum, have your robot drummer hit drum, measure sustain, repeat for down pointing L-arm. What changed between trials this time? The center of mass of the system is lower for trial 2. How much lower depends on how long the L-arm is, and where exactly the tom makes connection to the L-arm. If the tom is connected near the elbow of the L-arm then the center of mass only shifts downward by a few millimeters. If the tom is connected an inch or two away from the elbow then the shift would be more significant. Would this shift in the center of mass effect sustain? Surely it could have some effect, but I doubt it would be much. If we turned this experiment sideways there is still a change in the geometry of the parts. It goes from a stretched out Z shape to more of a U or J shape. In the end, the energy is vibrating the same overall mass, I doubt that changing the geometry of the heavy steel parts would make them more "sympathetic" to the tom drum's vibration in any significant way.

Finally, let's include the bass drum...

Replace the immovable object with the bass drum and repeat the previous Gedanken. What is different between the trials now? Well, now the change of the geometry associated with the L-arm pointing down brings the tom drum closer to the bass drum which should increase the sustain to some extent. The bass drum receives vibrational energy though the tom mount, but also through the air. The wave energy traveling through the air from the tom to the bass would roughly follow an inverse square relationship with distance. i.e. If you double the distance between them, the bass would receive only 1/4 as much wave energy. BUT...as a practical matter drummers set the height of the tom drum with respect to the floor or the top of the bass drum, to their playing preference. SO...when the L-rod is pointing up he/she would shift the whole tom mount assembly downward to get the tom head to the desired playing height, and vise versa for the L-rod pointing down. In either case the tom and bass end up the same distance apart, so all that inverse square stuff is moot.

In summary...

If it is anything more than a placebo effect (started by some guy named Gary "stix"" Jones at a Guitar Center drum clinic back in 1989) I think it comes back to physics similar to what I expressed in my previous post. The mass and length of the mount tube that extends down into the bass drum could have a dampening effect the transfer of vibrational energy from the tom to the bass. In the previous post was thinking in terms of it mitigating a large force/torque that would possibly damage the acrylic shell, but the same would be true of smaller repeating vibrational forces.

So if you take the advise of Gary "stix" Jones and set up your kit with the L-rod pointing down, you are probably also adjusting the mount tube upward to set the playing height of the tom, if my theory holds, that would make the bass shell less damped and more sympathetic to the vibrations coming to it from the tom though the mount assembly. So in that way, my theory seems to fit with the urban legend.

Alas, all this is pure conjecture, the only true answer would come from actual controlled experiments. I didn't go as far as getting out the oscilloscope, and charging up the Tokai robot, but to my (tinnitus riddled) ears I hear no difference between L-Rod up and L-Rod down.

Thanks a lot Mitch! I was suppose to get some trim painted in the kitchen today before my wife gets home...I guess I'll be working late

tonight.

P.S.

These thoughts brought to mind a local musician/inventor friend of mine. He invented and patented something he calls "Jet Fretz" http://www.jetfretz.com/ that allow a guitar to have double the sustain, and it's entirely mechanical. He can prove on an oscilloscope that the sustain is actually tripled, but it drops below the threshold of hearing after a while so he advertises it as a doubling effect. Anyway, he removes the regular frets from your guitar neck and routs out a dove tail channel where the fret used to be. He then slides in the Jet Fret from the side. The Jet Frets are much more massive, they look like a little piece of railroad track or something. So the added sustain results due to the string being fretted against a more massive object that is more securely connected to the mass of the rest of the guitar, so the vibrational energy stays in the string longer. I have played some Jet Fretz guitars and it really is a noticeable difference, but he charges like $800 to do the retrofitting...alas he has not gotten rich from the idea yet, but the guy from Dream Theater and a few other celeb guitar guys have used them.

AL

____________

-69 Ludwig Standard

-72ish Star Acrylic

-Taiko drumming robot

-immovable object

Stop stringing and tuning your instrument, make music now.
-fortune cookie

Vintage Drums:
1970ish Ludwig Standard Avocado Strata downbeat
1970ish Star Acrylic 22,12,13,16
1950’s Gretsch tympani 26.5
19?? Sonor roto-tympani 13x12
70’s Ludwig Standard alum 14x5 snare
90’s Arbiter Adv. Tuning 12x5 snare
90’s Ludwig blackrolite 14x5 snare

Modern Drums:
Erie Drums 1-ply sycamore shell kit 18,10,13
Erie 1-ply maple 14x5 snare
Tama S.L.P. Acrylic 14x6.5 snare
Posted on 7 years ago
#7
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That Star kit IS a star. Man, just gorgeous. Show us the Arbiter snare too? Good job, and welcome!

-Doug

late 60s Ludwig Standard kit (blue strata)
late 60s Star kit (red satin)
Tama Rockstar Custom
a few snares ...
Posted on 7 years ago
#8
Posts: 6523 Threads: 37
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I find that the long pole reduces shaking noticeably. Short poles with small footprint from the base plate seem to get out of control shaking during playing.

That fret, has an apex/round that would eat through my strings fast. I like flat frets, You can lift the action simply by cornering the string to reduce buzz. I don`t play center, I play as close to or on top of the fret as I can. (plus muted most of the time)

Playing clean, That fret looks like an awesome idea. I see it`s value on acoustic and not solid body.

I read all the time hear about sustain with drums,...I never understand it. If all you do is hit the drum once, sustain may be of relative significance, other than that, I see no use for sustain from a drum. It is of great value however on a guitar.

It`s a drum,.....Hit It !!

.....76/#XK9207 Phonic Sound Machine D454/D-505 snares !i
Posted on 7 years ago
#9
Posts: 6523 Threads: 37
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Is the snare for this kit acrylic as well ?

It`s a drum,.....Hit It !!

.....76/#XK9207 Phonic Sound Machine D454/D-505 snares !i
Posted on 7 years ago
#10
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