I don't know of a way to be completely sure whether a given 14" cymbal was initially designated a crash or a hi hat unless it has model ink saying so. You can check weights, which also vary over different production eras.

http://black.net.nz/avedis/avedis-prices.html#14

If a 14" cymbal weighs more than 850g or so, chances are pretty good that it isn't going to be a fast crash and is more likely going to be better hi hat (top or bottom). But you can use it for whatever you like.

Weight is only one factor and doesn't get into the detail of taper (metal getting thinner out towards the edge) which tends to be greater in cymbals intended to open up rapidly when crashed. As far as I can tell the bell diameter (4") and bell height is the same on 14" Old A cymbals.

You can tell if a vintage cymbal has spent much time as a hi hat or as a marching band pair because there are patterns of wear which are specific to those uses. But that tells you how it was used, not 100% how the factory designated it.

Hope this helps.

This may be a major monkey wrench but there was a time when a "set" of hi hats was to a fair degree in the eye of the beholder. The cropped jpg below is from the 1963-64 Zildjian catalog that can be found on the web if you like. I'm certain that you could get a "set" of hi hats but it would generally be tailored to your needs and often included cymbals that we might not consider hi hats today.

Pete

edit - should have mentioned that something purposed as a crash in (say) 1950 could have been purchased for and used as a hi hat if the drummer thought it met his or her needs.

That snippet of a catalog looks like it is from the 1958 dated version, although that general style of language about hats occurs in later catalogs as well (one dated 1969).

Did it come from here: http://www.drumarchive.com/Zildjian/

in the file called: ZildjianSetups60s.pdf ?

If so then check the year of copyright and it is MCMLVIII (aka 1958) on the second page. As I've tried to document catalogs as posted on the web I've found a number seem to have slightly incorrect years associated with them either in the file name or added description. This can be related to taking a snippet or just one page out of context. That file gets copied on by others who rely on just the filename or added description for the year even though it may not be correct.

Note that on that same web page there is also a file called ZildjianSetups70s.pdf which is labelled "60s" and dated to 1969. It appears to contain two different scans (different sizes) which have been combined into one pdf and the later pages may date from the 70s. I've never quite had it all sorted out. If somebody has these original documents that would help. I presume they called the file ZildjianSetups70s.pdf because they had already used the file name ZildjianSetups60s.pdf for the 1958 version.

Of course, these catalogs would still be current until some years later when the next catalog was produced, so 60s vs 70s in the file name isn't completely misleading for either. If you did get the snippet from a 1963-64 catalog with good provenience I'd love a link. I don't think I've come across a 1963-64 catalog sitting between 1958ish and 1969ish.

** EDIT ** no answer on the link to the 1963-64 catalog was forthcoming but in the meantime I've found it. It's on our sister site

http://vintagecymbalguide.com/zildjian_literature.html

but not fully labelled as 1963-64. It's the first one on the left and the title just says Zildjian Cymbal Catalog (Complete). You can see the date once you get the larger image.

Received the cymbal today, looks very close in shape to my late 50s hihat. The lathing is much more pronounced.

It works very well as a hihat bottom with a weight just under 800g

And bear in mind that labeling cymbals as "crash" "ride" or whatever is a relatively new concept. Before that is was just a cymbal, and you used it as you saw fit to do so.

The recent Kerope line from Zildjian got back to that, where they had diameters and each cymbal was just a cymbal of a diameter (and weight). You picked a cymbal based on how it sounds to you for the purpose you want to use it for.

Great to hear it works for you. The trademark stamp looks 60s and the lathing being much more pronounced is the usual contrast between 50s and 60s. Larger tonal grooves in the 60s. The contrast is often easily seen on the bell. 50s

[img]http://black.net.nz/avedis/images/20-SSB.jpg[/img]

vs 60s

[img]http://black.net.nz/avedis/images/18-60s.jpg[/img]

although there is more subtle variation as well, as you can see in my first attempt to illustrate the range of variation and develop a coding system:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/bells.html

Yes Zildjian tried to make the Kerope line "multi purpose" although I was amused at how that gets undermined by the online shops which have a rigid classification system which couldn't cope. Having "multi purpose" is an historical nod to the K Zildjian Istanbul company who didn't produce special purpose models in the same way as their upstart American cousins. But for the Avedis Zildjian Company "Crash" vs "Ride" is a relatively new concept if you think 1930 is relatively recent. Model ink and specific models began with the first Avedis Zildjian cymbals. It was one of their innovations from their first decade of opearion. Here is a 1930s ink example:

[img]http://black.net.nz/avedis/images/first-pthin.jpg[/img]

from: http://black.net.nz/avedis/avedis-gallery.html#ink

I've now got a large collection of ink examples across the production eras but I haven't yet created a new ink gallery which displays it all. Part of that is the hunt for the earliest example of ink saying CRASH vs say PAPER THIN or EX. THIN which we know are 1930s and 1940s. Avedis Zildjian also have a specific patent which was granted for varying the thickness of cymbals via lathing (taper). That was in 1951 (US patent 2559143). Taper is part of the story with different models. Avedis Zildjian were also using different bell dies for different models in the same diameter of cymbal from at least the 1950s. That's another documentation project underway. We do know that ink specific to Hi Hat models goes back to the Trans Stamp trademark era. Bill Hartrick named this the Type I, and dates it to 1946-1949.

[img]http://black.net.nz/avedis/images/T1-hi-hat-ink.png[/img]

The triangular blob on the ink stamp (at the bottom right of the word TOP) is something which I've seen on a few of these older ink stamps, but I haven't yet gone through the entire database to check on the association of trademark stamp and presence/absence of that blob. At this preliminary stage all I know is that most ink went missing from the early cymbals due to cleaning over the years, but when ink is present it can add useful insights.

Not meaning to hijack this discussion, but certainly some Zildjian knowledge here. Just received a late 60's or early 70's 16" ebay purchase. Stamp seems accurate to the vintage, but noticed the large faded Zildjian graphic on the bottom, capital letters. Does that jive with that era as well? Haven't seen that on some of the older 60's, 50's Zildjians that I have.

We seem to be in an ink mode, so here goes.

I'd like to see pictures of yours: one of the trademark stamp, one of the overall cymbal from the top, and one of the overall cymbal from the bottom.

The timeline for ink has a hollow ink Zildjian going on the bottom from 1978 to late 1982 (with a few reports of pre 1978):

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2013/70sA3.jpg[/img]

In late 1982 the ink on the bottom went solid, and there were associated changes to the ink on the top. The solid ink had a little registered trademark symbol ® added in 1992. Prior to that there wasn't an ®, so the example below is 1992 or later:

[img]http://black.net.nz/avedis/images/Zildjian-R-bot.png[/img]

The trademark stamps found on cymbals with hollow ink Zildjian and solid ink Zildjian aren't 100% what you would expect giving the associated years. Ink and trademarks don't change in lockstep. And although we have nicknames like "60s" or "70s" or "80s" there is evidence that the "60s" trademark stamp wasn't put away on December 31st, 1969 and the "70s" trademark stamp put in use January 1st, 1970. I've got evidence that the "70s" stamp seems to have remained in use even after the "80s" CO. stamp appeared in the late 1982 change to the solid Zildjian ink.

Two percent of cymbals with a 60s trademark stamp have hollow ink Zildjian ink. For cymbals with a CO. (80s) trademark stamp, about 17% have hollow ink Zildjian, and 4% have solid. There are also cymbals with a "70s" trademark stamp which have solid Zildjian ink. We don't yet know what processes in the factory are consistent with these observations. What we do know is that all the years associated with changes to particular attributes (be they trademark stamp or ink) are subject to uncertainty. We tend to write as if they are precisely known, but that's not really the case.

And last but not least, there are some well documented cases of cymbals where somebody has added a Ziljdian logo where it doesn't belong. Sometimes the ink is added to non Zildjian cymbals, or in the wrong place. This makes it easy to spot. The following is an 18" Dixie (made by Paiste) where somebody added a Zildjian ink logo. It's in the wrong location since the Zildjian logo on the top goes below the bell (at 6 o'clock) not above it.

[img]http://black.net.nz/paiste/images/18-dixie.png[/img]

The timeline for ink (and trademark stamps, and hammering style, and lathing style, and model info) is all on my site via the links in my signature. Model info is still just starting to appear, but we're headed that way as I get time to write up the evidence I've collected so far.