notice there Is how he Frames the issue/fight Avedis Zildjian had with Fred Gretsch and how Avedis snuffed the old K Turkish plant out, and how he felt about that; the Avedis Co. USA of 1985 contrasted with what was happening in the mid 80s to cymbal making ( it's flowing again) in Turkey at the time...

It's the story Bill, myself and many at Cymbalholic have been saying telling for 20 years. There's Mel saying it with his own words. All in that clip.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8_czkkkbIk&feature=youtu.be&t=4215"]Mel Lewis Workshop Hilversum '85 - YouTube[/ame]

He also says the same thing I been saying since I came here, K's don't like to wash. Only he says ,."ring out".

You can get it to happen but it dies quickly. They have good bell sound too. Cell phones and desk top speakers don't do them any justice.

Let me ask you jda, instead of "deny'n Bill" or"wont admit zenstat",...

There's Gold in K's,....Right ? I think in the form of Electrum. It's pretty common around Copper ore to find Electrum because both Silver and Gold cool before copper in hydrothermal fluids carrying them. So you find it around the Copper ore deposits, mostly under.

I think K used it because it is real cheap. -10 Karat. If nobody else uses it, K's will always sound unique.

I dunno.Interesting theory and could be. What I would say is there is a common sound between Old Turkish K and American Boston USA Zildjian. Moreso than (Istanbul Bosphorus Paiste et al) has. There's something in the Brotherhood there..between the two continents' Zildjians. That's clear as a bell. Istanbuls/Bosphorus don't sound like old K Zildjians. But a Computer-coded, near all machine made Avedis K captures more of the sound of an Old K than the traditional Modern Turkish makers do..

Modern Turkish makers capture the soft organic feel. But American K extracts the aural even if artificially and machine-coded- in.

So there's something in and about Zildjian. They USA Zildjian can hear and program machines. Modern Turks care more about and tout the age old process.

That's why guys are so Effed up about cymbals today.

American Zildjian knowswhat Old K sounded like ......but insist making them with machines.

Turks today, make cymbals the old Way but can't, won't or don't ....pay any reference... to the old Sound.

Limited to some peripheral aspects of the old K.

It's a Turkish stand off.

Maybe old ks sounded they way they did because they were Armenian.

It's as good a theory as any.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

https://www.company-histories.com/Avedis-Zildjian-Co-Company-History.html

http://www.turkishculture.org/music/musical-instruments/turkish-cymbal-285.htm

"wont admit zenstat" has this data available:

[ame]http://cymbal.wiki/alloy-analysis-h2.pdf[/ame]

in the general write up on alloy composition which is here

http://www.cymbal.wiki/wiki/Alloys

" There's always Trace Elements No one can Trace.."

It's the "X-factor" in Life, Science can only go so far.

hey Zen You're Alive way to go Beat all the Odds Huh. Merry Christmas :)

Just realized Its New years Eve!

https://soundcloud.com/jda56/in-three

Well the price of Gold is insane now. Does A know the formula of K ? If I wanted to keep a mixture secret, I'd make them this way and say that way Type thing

Yes because Aram came over and showed Avedis III , who was in the Confectionery business at the time, how and what the procedure entailed.

Interesting chart. Did not know you had it. Not much gets by you so it's safe to say accurate (minus the Wiki stuff)

While most view it as separate elements chart, the fact they are together with, tells me something else. I don't see separate ones, I see testing results of,... See if you test and find lead and sulfur, you can also see Galena, (Lead Sulfide)...if you see results with Iron and Sulfur, (Pyrite) I might see, I see possible Sphalerite too, (it's a Zinc Sulfide boy !) Chalcopyrite, (Copper Sulfide)

The Sulfur is not simply Bronze related. The Phosphates play their roll too. But those mentioned are associated with Gold ore. Gold runs mostly in Sulfides and Chlorides in hydrothermal fluids. Turkey and surrounding places are good sources for mineralization.

Do you suspect it in the K's ? A lot of n/a not assayed going on with that Element in the chart. If you don't look for it you wont find it.