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Paiste Cymbal question and timeline - web site question

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[indent]I don't know if you're familiar with the history/timeline of the Paiste Formula 602 series, but maybe you can help please, or know of a Paiste buff who can?

From what I understand, the Paiste Formula 602 series was produced from 1959-1993. Some cymbals have a "Blue" label, & some have no label at all?

What came first?

Is there any significance to the color labeling?

Is this simply a cosmetic change that took place over the years?

What's the difference if any in sound quality?

And lastly, I ran across a Paiste 22" Formula 602. It has the "Shooting Star" Logo but NO serial number or blue ink label. Is this a "real" Formula 602?

Thanks in advance for your great insight.[/indent]

Posted on 19 years ago
#1
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David,

Did you ever get any information on this question? I am very curious since I have been looking at and buying a Paiste/Ludwig 602 ride & crash. I wondered what the years & differences were in dating and quality between the engraving that has Paiste / Ludwig in script and 3 stars vs. the one that has Paiste / Ludwig Standard and 1 star. No serial numbers.

Posted on 17 years ago
#2
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uhm.. I have a paiste formula 602 20" ride with no serial or stamps.. I also wonder :)

Its a killer ride!

Posted on 17 years ago
#3
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Sorry guys...I've been in Europe for a couple of weeks and couldn't respond. Here's what I know...

Formula 602's originally came with only the stamped shooting star/formula 602 and no serial numbers. These cymbals were produced from 1959 to late in the 60's although the end date is unclear. In the mid-60's some the pre-serial cymbals began to also include ink stamps with the size (ie: 18") and type (ie: medium). The labels were usually on the underside of the bell.

In the late 60's through the late-mid 70's Paiste began to add serial numbers to these cymbals as well as black labels. This was known as the black label era. The labeling is in the form of a relatively simple script which says Paiste Formula 602. Size and type were also labeled at 90 degrees clockwise in the same printing direction. Paiste also continued to stamp these cymbals as before.

In the 80's, Paiste went to blue labels which mimic the shooting star stamp. Size and type were labeled as per the black label era. The blue label era were the last form of the Formula 602 cymbals until they were discontinued in 1987.

Formula 602 cymbals are remarkably similar regardless of era and were manufactured with the same methods throughout the series lifetime. This is a testament to the Paiste manufacturing system which produces each and every cymbal to match a master cymbal in sound. Of course, there are collectors who prefer various eras and feel that there are minor sound differences between them but in the end I think its just preference for the look of the cymbal. I have tried cymbals of each era and there is virtually no difference in sound quality. This is great news for collectors because it means that as long as the cymbal is intact and not damaged it is pretty much guaranteed to sound great. My pre-serial collection is a testament to this....not a bad one in the bunch.

Regarding Ludwig/Paiste cymbals, as the result of a marketing agreement these were produced during the 60's for sale with Ludwig drum kits. There are at least two versions the most common of which are:

Ludwig Paiste (3 stars) - These cymbals were made from the same B20 alloy as the Formula 602's in Switzerland. They tend to be thinner cymbals so you must be very careful when looking at purchasing used ones. Thinner cymbals tend to be more susceptible to damage and even small dents and warpage can negatively affect the sound of these cymbals. Condition is everything. Rides tend to be more common in Jazz sizes. Hats are also common. Crashes in good condition are rare.

Ludwig Standard (shooting star) - These cymbals were made from the B20 or the NS12 alloy. NS12 will be more silvery in color and will typically have the "German Made" stamp although this is not 100% true since some of the larger sizes were made in Switzerland also. NS12 cymbals can be great shimmery sounding pies with less dark overtones than B20, but the alloy is soft and the cymbals are easily damaged therefore you absolutely must play and listen to the cymbal before purchasing. I can attest to this as I have a few dogs around. These cymbals may also carry the "Swiss Made" stamp and are usually B20 cymbals if stamped in this way. These cymbals also tend to be thinner than Formula 602's. The same comments apply as for the Ludwig Paiste cymbals re: condition. These cymbals also tend to be more common on the market.

Posted on 17 years ago
#4
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Drum Dad,

This is really great information and I appreciate the follow up. Would the Ludwig Standards or The Ludwig Paistes have a some dating guideline? Such a Cymbal with no ink stamp versus a Cymbal with Black ink stamp?

What would the physical traits of the cymbals made in the 60's under the Ludwig Standard or Ludwig Paiste title have been - such as engraving, logo, stamps?

Thanks a lot for this information, it is really useful to me.

Mike

Posted on 17 years ago
#5
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Mike:

I'm definitely not an expert on the Ludwig's but I know that they were produced probably for about 5-6 years in the early 60's. They may have been produce in the late 50's as well. With that in mind they were produced in the era where Formula 602's did not have serial numbers and for the most part did not have ink stamps. I have not seen a Ludwig Paiste or Ludwig Standard yet that carried a serial number. I have never seen a Ludwig Paiste with ink stamping, however, I have seen Ludwig Standards with ink stamping. Sometimes a small Paiste logo near the bell and a type (ie: medium) at the 3 o'clock position. I would assume that the ink logos were toward the end of the production run for these cymbals. As far as logo pics....I do have some....let me round them up and I will make another post.

A comment on sound quality/value.....it is my opinion that sound quality and value is ranked as follows....Formula 602 (any label), Ludwig Paiste, Ludwig Standard (Swiss), Ludwig Standard (German) in descending order for equivalent condition cymbals.

Cheers,

Chris

Posted on 17 years ago
#6
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Chris,

So if I understand you correctly, Ludwig/Paiste & Ludwig Standard/Paiste would only likely be 1960's vintage.

I have 2 cymbals one is an 18" crash clearly engraved Ludwig Standard - Paiste Swiss Made (no print whatsoever). First photo shown in previous posting #2.

The other is a 22" ride with Black Ink word PAISTE and red ink MEDIUM, the logo is engraved LUDWIG STANDARD - Paiste ??? Made. Shown in second photo in posting #2 and below in this posting.

There are no serial numbers on either that I can tell.

The pictures are of the 22" ride. The ride really sounds great it has a beautiful shimmer to it...do you think both of these are from the 60's?

Thanks again, Mike

Posted on 17 years ago
#7
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Mike:

Yes, in my opinion, your cymbals are from the 60's, the ink stamped one being later that the one without ink. That said, I do not know the exact dates from which the Ludwig/Paiste marketing deal started and ended although that would be interesting information.

Here are the three versions of the Formula 602 logo.

Stamped:

[IMG]http://a809.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/115/m_5c4b2666e5cc946525335d4a528cc888.jpg[/IMG]

Black Label:

[IMG]http://a548.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/79/m_9d8423999c76579b05d8a773a33ca6f3.jpg[/IMG]

Blue Label:

[IMG]http://a794.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/117/m_870ea4db6f4ce9d0f9b7a844b8567129.jpg[/IMG]

Posted on 17 years ago
#8
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Here are the Ludwig Paiste and Ludwig Standard logos....

Ludwig Paiste

[IMG]http://a851.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/127/m_99b6d543aecf138a204607a78f4cfd6a.jpg[/IMG]

Ludwig Standard - Made in Germany

[IMG]http://a726.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/80/m_3d795e63ecb38aaba3500f09c91fc7dd.jpg[/IMG]

Ludwig Standard - Swiss Made

[IMG]http://a28.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/114/m_df751c8e5bd472914ef03ee7c2ce1ff3.jpg[/IMG]

Posted on 17 years ago
#9
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Chris, This is outstanding info for me at least. I really appreciate it too. This 22" ride really has a nice shimmer it is set up with my early 60's Ludwig Galaxy kit which is now pretty much complete! Thanks again Chris for the beautiful pictures and the explanations on the Paiste Formula 602's and the Paiste Ludwig & Ludwig Standard cymbals.

Mike

Posted on 17 years ago
#10
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