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Gretsch Question ?

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Thanks.

I just did a little research and Sonor's are going for $1K to 3K new so for that amount you should get something of value. They don't look stupid. Some of the stuff on the Gretsch and Ludwig sites reminded me of when GM was making Citations in the 80's... er... "anyone home?".

When I see huge sets of Ludwigs for less than $500 I shake my head.

http://drums-percussion.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ludwig-Element-5Piece-Power-Drum-Shell-Pack-with-Free-10-x-7-Tom-Drum?sku=582208

They probably aren't bad but that's less than they were 35 years ago when a new car started at $4K and you could buy a house for $30K. Not right.

Sorry to bug, but what about Premier?

Posted on 14 years ago
#11
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After Yamaha destroyed the premier company, they tried to compete, but went out of distribution, supposedly they are coming back soon? also Sonor is the same way as ludwig, they build they own high end shells all wood work is done in germany, but all the metal parts are china!

Your drummers not much good is he!? What you need is someone that's as good as me. ! John Henry Bonham !!
Posted on 14 years ago
#12
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From MastroSnare

Thanks.I just did a little research and Sonor's are going for $1K to 3K new so for that amount you should get something of value. They don't look stupid. Some of the stuff on the Gretsch and Ludwig sites reminded me of when GM was making Citations in the 80's... er... "anyone home?".When I see huge sets of Ludwigs for less than $500 I shake my head.http://drums-percussion.musiciansfriend.com/product/Ludwig-Element-5Piece-Power-Drum-Shell-Pack-with-Free-10-x-7-Tom-Drum?sku=582208They probably aren't bad but that's less than they were 35 years ago when a new car started at $4K and you could buy a house for $30K. Not right.Sorry to bug, but what about Premier?

The inexpensive Ludwigs are imports, not USA made. Only the Legacy classic and Classic maple and classic birch series are made in monroe, and those are much more than the $500 sets you saw.

Same with the Gretsch catalina series....all imports. The only Gretschmade here are the USA customs. And those are mega bux!

Premier at the moment has no US distributor and from what I understand went into receivership some months back over in the UK, but have been re-purchased. So, I'm not sure what the actual status if Premier is right now....they did make good stuff though...

Posted on 14 years ago
#13
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Thanks I appreciate the replies.

I was happy to see a decent iron at Kmart the other day. Black and Decker is apparently two separate companies that have nothing to do with each other. The appliance section of the company remakes the classic GE iron and it weighs and looks actually identical to the ones from way back. I have an old GE iron I bought off of eBay.

I also have a 1949 GE toaster from eBay... works way better than those crappy plastic ones - the toast comes out better I think because of the heat capacity of all the metal.

Posted on 14 years ago
#14
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As to the Union question:

Let's see...hmm...Ludwig...Chicago...could be...Slingland...Chicago...hmm...Gretsch...New York...I don't know...Kent...well, they don't count. But if they escaped unionization, it would surprise hell outta me...and I have contended it could have been one of the primary reasons. other than selling out to the other side via "outsourcing" for profit. And once the union has your company in it's deadly grip, they can kill your quality far quicker than you can do anything about because once the union has your employees in their control, they explain to them they cannot be fired for screwing up as long as they show up do only the job that was negotiated on their behalf....and they are not allowed to help out anywhere else on the floor or it is considered "out of scope" for you...so the line backs up until the guy putting the widget together figures a way to slap it together faster, regardless quality issues.....anyone care to rebuke this?

"Ignorance may be overcome through education. Stupidity, however, is a lifelong endeavor." So, educate me, I don't likes bein' ignant...
"I enjoy restoring 60s Japanese "stencil" drums...I can actually afford them..."I rescue the worst of the old valueless drums for disadvantaged Children and gladly accept donations of parts, pieces and orphans, No cockroaches, please...
http://www.youtube.com/user/karstenboy
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Coffee...16613138379603
Posted on 14 years ago
#15
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Sure. I will respond based on my experience with the union halls.

Union labor is not all a bunch of guys trying to do as little as possible for the most money. I hire boilermakers from the Chicago area often while working in Joliet, Waukegan, Romeoville, Crawford there on Pulaski blvd, etc. and there are some guys up there that I would go to war with. I mean they are some working sob's!! What does happen though is one or two bad apples get into the barrell and then it is hard to keep the barrell from needing scrapped. I have fired boilermakers before with little to no resistance from the union hall. (avoiding a bad barrell) The contracts state pretty clearly that they can and will be fired for non performance and the superintendant has it at his descretion. There are no bad crews, just bad leadership. History has shown average groups of people doing extraordinary things with proper motivation and leadership. History has also shown massively talented groups of people failing for whatever reasoning. It all comes down to leadership.

Now, the shop locals which is what the drum shops would have been. This is a bit more of a challenge. If these gusy get fired, they don't go back to the hall, they are out of a job, so their steward and BA will fight harder to keep them on the job. Bottom line though, if guys are garbage, even the die hard old timer union men will want to see them go. There is a great amount of pride in those locals, believe it or not, but most just pass them off as overpaid, lazy workers. Not true, at least from what I have seen.

toodles

drumhackMister TJumping2flowers2Cool Dudeflower

"If it doesn't matter who wins or loses then why the hell do they keep score Peg? - Al Bundy
Posted on 14 years ago
#16
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On the other hand, I worked in the coal mining industry...need I remind anyone about the striking miners (UMWA/UAW/TEAMSTERS) in the 70s and 80s? As I was a scab, I was not privvy to the local hall, I was, however, privvy to the showerhouse BS. These were some ruthless, lazy no good hillbillies, and they took messing up the company very seriously if the super did not do things their way, to hell with company policies and procedeures. I have seen a union local boss and admin shut down production because there was not Ajax dishwashing liquid in the showers, but Palmolive instead. Stopped and pulled every hand out and sent them home. And locked down the equipment physically to make certain the company scabs did not run coal. So the trucks had to send all the drivers home and who do you think had to pay the lost productivilty to the trucking company and a full 2 days off for three shifts? The mine operator, not the union.

So, with these types of people running those types of unions, I can't see the boilermakers wanting much to do with woodworkers, which I am certain would have been the local and national for the drum makers. UMWA is not into drums, nor would I think the boilermakers would be. Those are among the strongest of the unions, and as such could resist easily the influences, although they were not totally immune in the 50s thru the 80s. If you will recall, it took, literally, an act of Congress to get rid of the mobs' influence on the AFofL/CIO and the rest of unionized labor, and it was bloody....

It seems the woodworkers and fitters, and they were probably not as strong as some of the others that could resist outside influence, if you know what I mean. The woodmen and woodworkers associations were not as strong as the big boys, so they would have been easy targets for the mob to harrass and it is no secret they had their hands deep in the pockets of the music industry.

"Ignorance may be overcome through education. Stupidity, however, is a lifelong endeavor." So, educate me, I don't likes bein' ignant...
"I enjoy restoring 60s Japanese "stencil" drums...I can actually afford them..."I rescue the worst of the old valueless drums for disadvantaged Children and gladly accept donations of parts, pieces and orphans, No cockroaches, please...
http://www.youtube.com/user/karstenboy
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Coffee...16613138379603
Posted on 14 years ago
#17
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The work etics and attitude displayed by some union members is not necessarily what I was alluding to. (Although, it may play a part)

More precisely, could the salary and benefit demands put upon the companies have made it impossible to price their products to ward off being undercut by offshore companies that did not have those demands on them?

Ludwig, Slingerland, etc. may have had no choice but to price their kits as they did, in order to meet their overhead. MIJ, MIT, MIC, companies trained their big guns of low labor and low material cost on our guys, and blew them out of the water.

Alternatively, it may not have been a union thing at all. I'm sure a MIJ shell is much cheaper to produce than those classic 3 ply shells made here. (Sorry Jonnistix,no slight intended...lol)

But how much of the drum buying public would appreciate the sound and durability differences? All they see is the bottom line cost. How do you compete? Sure you could crank out similar shells, but the labor costs here alone would still give MIJ the advantage. Besides, it would have turned the greats (Ludwig, Slingy, etc) into nothing more than stencil companies. Would we want to see that?

Mastrosnare hit on it. Try exactly reproducing that 1949 GE toaster today, what would it have to sell for? Those guys producing the MIJ. MIC plastic toasters will eat your lunch. Sure, it makes better and faster toast. But how many people notice or remember? Would they pay the cost difference?

Sometimes I think in sailing through time and progress we lose some really good stuff in the prop wash.

Posted on 14 years ago
#18
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I have already made these points, and it has drawn great criticism. It all leads to one inevitable fact. They were cheaper and mom and dad see the bottom line cost difference whether Jumior wanted Ludwig/Slingerland/Gretsch/Rogers....And again I will say this. Many of the drummers of today would not be, music would not be, what they are today had there not been the MIJ kits of the 60s and 70s. Too few people could have afforded the big names, or would have been willing to drop that kind of money on that big a Christmas or birthday gift. They could see 200 for the Sears kit, not the 500 for the music store drums, and besides, they look the same to those that don't play, end of story.

Today there are millions of drummers that just would not be, and many professional drummers cut their first chops on MIJ kits. Many of the young guns of today play MIJ currnet lines, while the collectors horde the top condition American vintage kits in air condidtioned silence for no one to ever play again, so music is changed forever.

And if these same people who complain about MIJ drums killing the American market had never gotten that MIJ kit on Dec. 25 1969, they would not be playing and hoarding 1964 Ludwigs today. Pure and simple, they served a purpose. And can you imagine the different world, musically, because there would be easily 1/2 the drummers today? Music would be far different as there would have been far fewer people to influence it's change, and the world undoubtedly would be a vastly different place if music had not gone in the directions it did. That, my good fellows, has been tracked and theorized to be a factor of major social change in this world, the changes and many diverse styles of music.

The same goes for the MIJ copy guitars of the 60s. They, too were far more affordable to give as "The Big Gift" for the year. Junior saw and heard Buddy Holly on tv and wanted a guitar. Gibson was 250, Teisco or Apollo was 65...can you see what mom and dad see? And many of the guitars are worth a small fortune today, and actually sound good.

The points of the woods is well made, and taken. I know very well they are far different. However, when properly worked, the drum shells I prefer, sound amazingly like Slingerland of old.

From Batterhead

The work etics and attitude displayed by some union members is not necessarily what I was alluding to. (Although, it may play a part)More precisely, could the salary and benefit demands put upon the companies have made it impossible to price their products to ward off being undercut by offshore companies that did not have those demands on them?Ludwig, Slingerland, etc. may have had no choice but to price their kits as they did, in order to meet their overhead. MIJ, MIT, MIC, companies trained their big guns of low labor and low material cost on our guys, and blew them out of the water.Alternatively, it may not have been a union thing at all. I'm sure a MIJ shell is much cheaper to produce than those classic 3 ply shells made here. (Sorry Jonnistix,no slight intended...lol) But how much of the drum buying public would appreciate the sound and durability differences? All they see is the bottom line cost. How do you compete? Sure you could crank out similar shells, but the labor costs here alone would still give MIJ the advantage. Besides, it would have turned the greats (Ludwig, Slingy, etc) into nothing more than stencil companies. Would we want to see that? Mastrosnare hit on it. Try exactly reproducing that 1949 GE toaster today, what would it have to sell for? Those guys producing the MIJ. MIC plastic toasters will eat your lunch. Sure, it makes better and faster toast. But how many people notice or remember? Would they pay the cost difference? Sometimes I think in sailing through time and progress we lose some really good stuff in the prop wash.

"Ignorance may be overcome through education. Stupidity, however, is a lifelong endeavor." So, educate me, I don't likes bein' ignant...
"I enjoy restoring 60s Japanese "stencil" drums...I can actually afford them..."I rescue the worst of the old valueless drums for disadvantaged Children and gladly accept donations of parts, pieces and orphans, No cockroaches, please...
http://www.youtube.com/user/karstenboy
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Coffee...16613138379603
Posted on 14 years ago
#19
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Sorry I did'nt get back to you sooner on this matter, I've been out touring around the country on my luxury Honda Goldwing, as I was giving my Nissan Ultima a break. I was jamming on my Yamaha kit.... playing 'Babylon Sisters'. Then it hit me ........

America's unquenchable materialistic appetite is the machine that fuels a global economy. Japan's economy would collapse if it were not for the billions of dollars per year gained in trading with America. When America goes into a recession, the world follows. When America's economy is booming, the world's economy strengthens. America devours, yet, is never satisfied. Running out of money, she tells the waiter to put it on her tab. He gladly complies making a tidy profit from the interest. He cannot serve her quick enough. The more she eats, the hungrier she becomes. As time passes, less goes to paying for food and more is needed to pay for the huge debt she is accumulating. Finally, all of her resources are used up in paying for the interest she owes. America falls crashing to the ground in economic ruin, so suddenly, it sends shock waves throughout the world. She is incapable of paying for her massive imports. Merchant ships sit offshore, heavy laden with cargo, weeping and wailing in horror for Babylon has fallen.

DOH

Posted on 14 years ago
#20
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