Up until the email where he asked for your information in a numbered list, I was feeling ok about this one. I'd agree with zenstat that the majority of the scammers I've run across (countless) never mention the actual item being sold and are not as knowledgeable about the item as this guy seems to be. However, LD makes a very good point, someone who's done this a while and targets this kind of item can easily learn a few brand/model names to make it look like hes knowledgeable. I mean did he really show that he knows anything other than the names Zildjian and Agop?

Here's how the money order scam works, buyer sends you a money order, usually counterfeit or stolen from a stack at the money order place and printed on with a computer. The money order is REAL, but STOLEN, so when you take it to cash it, its processed just like any other money order and you receive your money. So now the buyer has cash in hand and thinks great now I can send the package. Well a week or so down the road you get a call from your bank or wherever you cashed the money order telling you that the MO was counterfeit. YOU are now responsible to cover that money and whatever fee they feel like charging you. Buyer receives item that you've already sent and you are out cash and goods.

NEVER EVER send or receive paypayl payments as a gift. If you receive a gift payment, paypal views this as a transaction where no goods have been exchanged, and therefore any protections are then waived. If the buyer used a stolen credit card or charges it back there is nothing you can do about it. Only accept payment from VERIFIED members with a CONFIRMED ADDRESS and pony up the fee, its worth it for the protection.

I would probably walk away from this one, mainly because the cymbals you're selling are pretty hot items and finding a more local (Canada/US) buyer would not be hard. Even if this guy is legit, international sales are usually nothing but a hassle and a bunch of stress for the seller. Post them up here and at DFO if you don't want to mess with ebay, at least you know who you're dealing with around here.

This SCREAMS scam.

And, I am pretty well versed at his.... and an official 419 eater.

Ask for him to use Paypal. My guess is that he will come back and say something is wrong with his Paypal account and he has to use WU.

Also, you MUST ship via a method that allows insurance for loss or damage. I believe International Priority Mail is the only option for that. Anything else and he can say he never got the cymbals.

And, you MUST declare a value or your insurance will pay ziltch.

International transactions are tricky and the scammers know all the tricks. Don't let greed cloud your thinking. I can't imagine that you can't find a seller on this continent.

Deadhead

You make some good points about a possible counterfeit money order. That could happen if the money order does not "clear" before sending the cymbals. But, this fellow in Poland already knows I will not ship the cymbals until this happens. I have a close relationship with my bank......gave em lots of mortgage money lol....and I would not send the cymbals until I was sure the money was good - eg: wait days/weeks before sending the cymbals.

And yes, it is a hastle selling these out of country. But I may be willing to do this for the following reasons.........if things shape up well with the deal.

1) It would be nice to think I may be helping a drummer in Poland realize a dream of having these nice cymbals.

2) I've had them for sale for over a month on at least 4 different sites and he's the only one that has shown interest in all three - so far.

3) I want to sell them before my Gretsch USA Custom shellpack arrives because I did make a deal with my wife that I would sell drum stuff to buy my new drums and I want to have that mostly done by end of April. So this is very tempting to me.

I'm learning a lot about selling out-of-the-country here on this thread..........very much appreciated.....all comments....again Pros & Cons.

Thanks

This is the answer I got this A.M. from WU Poland:

Dear Mister Gary,

if your receiver will send money to you from Poland he will be responsible for charger. He should inform you about MTCN ( the number of this transaction), exactly amount and you should know his firs and last name. Than you can go to any Western Union agency and pick up money, but present valid ID.

Jeśli Pan/Pani ma jakieś dodatkowe uwagi lub pytania, prosimy o kontakt z powrotem na adres: [email]poland.customer@westernunion.pl[/email]

Z poważaniem,

Ramune

Biuro obsługi klienta

www.westernunion.pl

I had a guy in Switzerland send me $$$ via WU a few times before,and I just went to this place not too far away,and gave them the info,and they would take the cash right out of the drawer,and hand it to me!

Giving WU the info rather than an actual paper MO seems like the way to go. If they can look it up by a name and number and clear it right there then I wouldn't worry as much. Contacting WU was a good idea, and if you do go through with the deal I would ask as many ?s as you can about chargebacks, time to clear payments etc, and like you said only send when you know the money is cleared and in your hand.

I've made many many international deals, and though they usually are a hassle with customs and extra forms and wait times etc, I have only run across 1 problem in all of my dealings, and that was a customs problem with an item I sent to Italy. Just be smart, use the right methods and you won't get taken.

I still say, like others, that it is an elaborate scam.

Also, this cat seems willing to pay a WU fee, so he might be willing to pay the PayPal fee as well on top of the total amount... it's about 5% that would be deducted from the receiver's (Kona) amount... about $50 on a thousand....That's less than the $80 WU fee quoted earlier.... and there is more protection with PayPal as long as you don't use the gift option as LD stated above.

Just another two cents.....Hey, if we keep posting for a bit longer we will have an advisory fee built up to send to the VDF !!

Good luck Kona, be careful, and all will be well !

Kevins and all.......thanks for your help...

WU here in Nanaimo BC Canada just told me (via phone) there are NO fees at my end except if this person sent me the money in USD or Polish $$ I would be charged an exchange fee just like any bank would. But I will make sure the buyer will send me the money in CND.

Also....I have to make sure the sender sends me (via email etc.) the Money (WU) Transfer number, his full first and last name, the town and country from where he's sending the money and his....the sender's....phone number. All I have to do is show the Money Transfer Number and some photo I.D. and they will pay me my cash.......

I thought I had been sufficiently clear about how WU can work for you, as it has for me personally. However, some of the subsequent posters still seem to be talking about scams and WU which have a different structure. So let's try again:

He sends you WU and you go to the office and take hard cash in the hand and walk out the door.

end of the line for scammers because there is no way that cash can be taken out of your wallet again by WU.

Not so if you have something transferred to PayPal, then on to your bank account. Not so if you have something wired into your bank account. In this case you MUST wait more than 2 weeks to be safe. Again I have personally had things reversed a month after the money went in, and my bank has told me that even 6 weeks can pass and then a reversal happen for some reason. Even if you take the cash out of your bank account, the bank can still grab any other cash in your account (including your other accounts and potentially your mortgage if it is with them) to cover the reversal. Note in my case the reversed transfers were all legit transactions (unrelated to buying or selling things) where something went wrong at the sending end.

Some people avoid the issue of bank account reversals by opening a new account at a new bank and maintaining very little money in it. The account is for the sole purpose of stopping any issues which people express fears about (e.g. if you give your account number to somebody else to put money in they can get all your money out, if you have somebody put money in your account [via PayPal or not] it can be taken out later). It offers an extra layer of protection. If trouble strikes, you simply walk away from the account.

It's not a perfect world, so you take what steps you are comfortable to reduce risk. And before you criticize somebody as a scammer walk a mile in his shoes. That way you are a mile away and you have his shoes. Walking :D

I've just been out on my morning walk and thought I should mention a few (sorry gentle readers) next steps if you decide to go ahead.

The first is about insurance. My information here is not up to my usual standard, so I apologize in advance. I have not personally had to make an insurance claim as the shipper. People I trust have told me that the following things apply, and it has the ring of truth about it to me. I would of course love to hear from anybody else who has personally had to make an insurance claim as a seller/shipper. But do bear in mind that the eBay/PayPal process isn't the same as the Canadian Post process.

As the sender you take out the insurance policy. If the items go missing or are damaged you (not the guy in Poland) are the beneficiary. You make the claim and fill in the forms. You get the money from the insurance company via Canada Post. That's a hassle with a low probability. But here's the thing: you get the money. What does this mean for the guy in Poland? For simplification we'll presume you have insured for the correct total value:

[list]you get paid twice for the cymbals

[*]the guy in Poland has paid for the cymbals once

[*]the insurance company is out of pocket

[/list]

You retain control of this situation. You may (at your discretion) choose to give the guy in Poland the insurance money. Say you do that, but he is a crook and really does have the cymbals. Now the scenario is:

[list]you get paid once for the cymbals

[*]the guy in Poland has the cymbals but didn't pay anything for them

[*]the insurance company is out of pocket

[/list]

In this second scenario this is insurance fraud by the guy in Poland. He is not a scammer sensu stricto. You are not out of pocket. You have retained control of the situation. What's the problem, from your point of view as seller with all cash firmly in wallet?

If the insurance company doesn't pay up (or only pays part) then you don't give your own money to the guy in Poland. You are not out out of pocket. You have retained control of the situation. What's the problem, from your point of view as seller with all cash firmly in wallet?

I may be a bear of little brain, but I just can't see a problem here. If anybody has personal experience of insurance claims on packages, or can show how you can possibly end up out of pocket I'd love the learn new things.

Now so far as shipping (international or otherwise) I recommend you photograph your cymbals well, and record serial numbers and other identifying features, etc. Then for good measure I would photograph the package half done (cymbals sitting nicely inside), then package done up showing that it is in great shape. Although as I stated above I haven't personally made an insurance claim as a seller, I have had packages arrive in poor shape and the contents damaged. In that case I photograph it as before but in reverse: before I open it from all sides showing damage, partly open showing contents, items out and showing damage. I have personally done this and had a prompt replacement or refund from the seller. The seller is delighted because I have documented everything so they can make a claim on the insurance. This can't make insurance companies any easier to deal with, but any little bit helps.

The one time I personally have had a total loss on an eBay transaction paid for by PayPal was a few years ago when an Acrolite went missing. Before you make assumptions...this was bought in the USA and shipped to me at my California address where I was visiting my mother. It was lost by USPS. Sometimes it happens. I used to buy things and get them sent over each year in time for my annual visit to my mother. Alas, she dropped dead of a stroke while I was there and other events rather overtook the followup on the lost Acrolite. eBay and PayPal were completely unhelpful and the deal was a total loss. So it goes.

On the matter of PayPal and "gift" status to avoid fees, yes I've heard things about "gift" on PayPal not giving you any coverage. But the two times (one was the acrolite, the other was item not as described) I needed some assistance from PayPal and eBay I received absolutely none. El zippo. Disputes resolution process and all. Nada. All bought and delivered entirely within the USA. Nothing to do with international.

On the other hand, the two times I've had credit card details stolen over decades I've had nothing but excellent service and a complete fix to the problem. Before you make assumptions...once was a burglary in my office at the Medical School (you probably guessed already I was some sort of research type :cool: with my excessive thinking and writing and focus on facts not hearsay) where they went down the corridor and got lots of purses and such. The other was pre computer entirely. I rented a car in LA and burglars broke into the rental office and made off with the trash can full of those ancient zipzap machine forms where the merchant keeps one, you get one...remember those? I haven't had a single problem since modern computers and networking came on the scene. So it goes... :D