Frankly, I would tend to politely disagree with you - the description as described in the catalog of the time sets the definition. So 60s (and late 50's as well) show the 13 16 22 as a superclassic. In '71 you need to delineate a 13 16 22 or a 13 16 20 superclassic. Or use the model numbers as shown.

It's no different than with Jazzettes (oh boy, now I'm really stepping in it). Early on, 12x18, without question. By the early 70's (or whenever it was), 14x18. Early 80's, the catalog said 14x20 (hey don't blame me).

It's even worse with Rogers - they went the other way. Early 60's catalogs would say a Headliner was a 12 16 20 with a swivo tom mount and a knobby cymbal mount. Or a 13. Or a 14x14. Or a 22, etc. They stopped that in the '67 catalog. But yes, of course you could order what you wanted. Top Hat vs Londoner5? Just which era you are in (and the mount) (ok, and the 2 12's) (or the rare 12 13 TH).

Just my opinion, not a hill worth dying on.

That's great information and I would tend to agree with both of you guys. If the '71 catalog lists this option then, for that era of Ludwig, the title would apply...and be correct.

However, there were no 1968 SuperClassic kits offered with a 20" bass drum. Therefore, a 1968 SuperClassic would have to have a 22" bass drum, along with all the other proper drums and hardware package. And, yes, I do realize that Ludwig would supply ANY size drums that a customer wanted to order....That's not the question on the table, though. What we are talking about are titled configurations that Ludwig listed.

And yes to the Jazzette stuff, too. A later version of the Jazzette was listed with a 20" bass drum....and that title would be appropriate to a Jazzette that was made and sold during the proper year and catalogued as such. I've seen that catalog listing, but I forget the year...I think it was sometime in the '80's.

I think the same question came up in regards to The Barrett Deems snare drum discussion, too. Prior to Barrett Deems' endorsement, the same model was called something else ( I forget). So prior to Barrett Deems' endorsement, there were no Barrett Deems snare drums....even though the drum existed, prior, under a different moniker.

I would agree with levelpebble. Ludwig made the designations in their catalogs. So a kit with a non cataloged combination before the 71 catalog won't be a Super Classic. After the catalog was published it then will be a Super Classic either way.

My first kit was a used Ludwig mid 60s kit bought from my cousin who was the original owner. It is a 12, 14, 22. It doesn't fit any catalog designation so I can't call it a Downbeat or a Super Classic. Same goes for a pre 71 13, 16, 20 kit.

exactly^^^^

I greatly appreciate the opinions given by all of you! But, this brings up the following scenario; let's say you go into your favorite music dealer, maybe 1967-69, and order a Super Classic 980P, but want a 14x20 bass drum. The dealer notes the changes on the order form. I'm wondering what the catalog number would be for the order. Would it be a 980P, but with a 14x20 bass drum, or is it possible that Ludwig already had the 987P in their books, but not in the catalog? We may never know! Still, the minutia is what many of us love!

-Mark

By 1971, the Downbeat configuration had been discontinued as a catalog listing. (Correct me if I'm wrong because I don't have the reference material in front of me). In respect of that, my guess would be that Ludwig just began listing the (former) Downbeat bass drum as an option to the Super Classic configuration to somewhat compensate.

As far as the numbers scenario....hard to say. But the dealers never really did much good for what would eventually become a collector's market for vintage drums. They were all too often the ones responsible for changing mounting hardware and drilling holes and otherwise fulfilling customers' requests. Shame on them! ;)

Show me the paper work that you substitute a 14/ 20 for the 14/22 and then maybe you can say it started out as a sc but now it’s custom

That’s all I have to say about it

most are orphans that’s a given

Not to derail things, but I just noticed that the ad for the Super Classic in the '63 catalog says: "14x14 tom tom may be substituted at no change in price - specify!"

I never picked up on that - interesting.

http://www.vintagedrumguide.com/images/ludwig_sets/1963_ludwig_drumsets2.jpg

Interesting! I hadn't noticed that. I'll check out the catalog!

-Mark