I always thought that the most common pre-serial 602's apart from hats were Medium Rides and Thin Crashes. In the Black Label period, Mediums are well documented (Paiste Profiles #1 has many setups featuring both 'Mediums' and 'Medium Rides') Paiste Mediums were their Crash/Rides. I also have a 22" Medium Ride and it weighs 2790 grams. I think over 3000 grams for a Paiste 22" is actually fairly heavy. So I still think your 22" is a Medium Ride. $00.02

My newest acquisition is the 22" Zildjian Kerope which weighs in at 2386g and its very definitely a ride,... or a crash, or anything you want to call it. It is medium thin. I don't think a cymbal needs to be heavy in order to ride it. A medium 22 would weigh around 2600-2900 g. Anything more than that would be medium heavy to heavy. Most of my 20's weigh in between 1950 and 2200 g. I personally do not own any "heavy" cymbals.

Over 3000g is getting into Sound Creation Dark Ride territory I believe.

I've supplied many of the weights which are used to create those tables (although Sean did the hard years getting them calculated and entered into the wiki table), so I can drop back to the raw data and have a fresh look. I've collected quite a bit more sales since then, but of course the problem is getting ones with the red model ink left on so you can be sure what is a Medium and what is a Medium Ride. Also 20s are much more common to start with, so you are down to quite a small sample size wanting to know about 22s.

I've had a conversation with CaptainCrunch regarding other differences between Medium and Medium Ride beyond just weight: bell size, bow, and taper (from memory). He has some good things to say and I'll try and get them into this thread (and into my 602 facts database) when I rediscover them.

Of course, you can get a copy of all my raw data as a spreadsheet to work with yourself if you want to. Just let me know. The only thing is that your copy then gets out of date as I do more entry. And I'm about to do another catch up. I seem to get behind while working on other projects...

I bought an 18" pre-serial 602 w/ rivet holes this week. It was a quick transaction and I really didn't get a chance to play it in context. It plays kind of like a crash/ride. A little thick for a crash and a little washy for a ride. I wish I had a scale on hand. Any of you 602 fans know this model?

Sorry didn't mean to hijack your thread, but mine is kinda wobbly too and sounds like you described.

Off the top of my head (and with a lot of rounding) I once put the cutpoints for guessing model based on weight for an 18" 602 as

1900 and up may be a Heavy

1800 and up it's a Medium Ride

1600 it might be a Medium or maybe Medium Ride

1400 it is more likely a Thin

1200 it is more likely to be a Thin Crash

each with a plus or minus 100g attached. And subject to revision with more data analysis. Let alone revision if I look at my notes again.

All of these models are distinct and were available in the preserial period as well.

From the 1967 Ludwig catalog they are all there:

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2013/602-models.jpg[/img]

Notice that there isn't a Crash model. Nor is there a Medium Crash. But there are other model designations that cover those bases. The other thing we don't know is what proportions were produced of the different models, or if that changed over time. My data can't quite tell us that because even when the ink is well preserved (blue label period) I only know the proportions which sell, not the proportions which were made. My data may be the best shot at it, but it isn't exactly what we want to know, only a proxy measure.

Once again, the trouble is that once the red model ink is gone than it's hard to tell. And as I alluded to above, we don't even know if weight will be enough to do it. It could mostly be down to other aspects of morphology.

For BosLover, these are model designations Paiste printed on them and we are trying to reconstruct these once the model ink is gone. It's an academic exercise not a musical exercise. Of course, just like Zildjian or Bosphorus players we are free to use any cymbals as we wish. Note also that the weight ranges for Paiste 602s and Sound Creations (the lines I know about) are quite different from old As, or old Ks, and the like. Paiste 602s and Sound Creations tend to be heavier, perhaps with the exception of the 602 Thin Crash model. But not with the Sound Creation crashes. It isn't a case of one weight range for "medium light" fits all Brands and production eras.

And just because I mentioned it before, I have looked up the proportions by diameter of used 602 sales:

diam number percentage

18 102 18%

19 40 7%

20 284 51%

21 27 5%

22 82 15%

24 20 4%

all 555 100%

So half of all sales are 20", by far the most common. Followed by 18", then 22". No great surprises there. But we don't know how many of these 18" cymbals are Thin Crashes versus Medium Rides. And the silly sellers on eBay often call any 18" cymbal a ride even when it weighs 1800g. And too many sellers still don't even give an accurate weight.

Zenstat is right - I have been doing studious 'research' (meaning a cymbal buying spree), and I have reason to believe that a "MEDIUM RIDE" and a "MEDIUM" are actually constructed with subtle differences that would enhance the ping of the ride version while still keeping the two fairly close in weight.

FWIW, I think the hammering visible in those shot-from-underneath 'Sunburst'-effect pics to have some importance in this.

EDIT: I have been slacking on my end on this. It's amazing how hard it feels like I have to work sometimes to keep my coworkers from burning the place down or accidentally drowning themselves in the toilet, and this eats into my important cymbal-obsessing-time.

What a fantastic post, thank you Zen

That's a really interesting observation thanks for spending the money to provide the info! Seriously, often wondered about that.

Sounds great love to hear it

C'mon mate. Autumn Leaves on an SCDR in the first set - that's the Jack test. Everyone has to do it occasionally as a kind of weight training exercise - or should I say weight control The Band My 20" DR is only 2608, but it's stiff as a board and requires a large lunch of Stick Control beforehand. Fun stuff!

Having put up the percentages of different diameters, I knew I had to update it to cover the full survey period: 2006 to mid March 2014. Here are the updated figures. They don't change any more than you would expect (2%) given our already large sample size.

diam number percentage

18 167 18%

19 58 6%

20 450 49%

21 42 5%

22 148 16% (includes 22 Dark Rides)

23 4 0.9% (new category left out of previous table)

24 42 5%

all 911 100%

I've also rechecked what's included and it is Mediums, Medium Rides, Heavy, and just a few which are blank (but we knew they were rides as opposed to crashes). I've called them all "Rides".

Hey guys, thanks for the valued input and Zenstat (once again) for your stats (I found the subject "Statistics" way beyond me at university- hence me becoming a lawyer instead :-) I took the easy way out!)

I had a good look at both the cymbals - the 20 and the 22". Their bells, profiles and lathing seems very similar - see pic attached. Would the ride not look slightly different?