I'm really not sure. Maybe our esteemed research colleague Mr Crunch can help out. It wouldn't surprise me if the bell diameter on the 22" is always the same as the 20" because they use the same die when they press it in. Although they could be different. I don't know. And I don't know if the Ride and Medium would have different bell sizes.

I wouldn't expect any variation in the lathing. All the 602 lathing I've seen is consistent. The only exceptions to the larger tonal groove style you've got there on both of yours are a few specific models which all have very fine lathing: flat rides, sound edge hats, and a few Seven Sound Set or Morello models.

Back to bells. Once upon a time, I did notice that the bell diameter on my 20" Sound Creation Medium Dark Ride (4.5" ) was distinctly smaller than the bell on my 20" 602 pre serial (5"), leading me to think that a smaller bell is part of making a Dark ride have fewer high frequencies (despite being heavier). 20" Dark Rides also have the 4.5" diameter bell (but we need some more data to recheck this).

The 22" Dark Rides have 5" bells so larger diameter than the 20" Dark Rides (4.5"), from the few I've got measurements for. I think (but am not sure! Need more info!) the 22" 602s also have a 5" bell.

So all we know so far is that sometimes Paiste use a different bell diameter for different (20" vs 22") cymbal diameters in the Sound Creation series. But it seems that both the Sound Creation 22" and the 602 22" have 5" diameter bells which suggests it isn't the parameter they vary to get the 22" Dark to be darker than the 22" 602. Just to be complete, the big bell prize goes to the 22" Sound Creation Bell Ride at 5.5". As you might expect.

So the picture is complex and needs more people who have 22" cymbals to measure the bell diameter. This is an older project which got stalled before I had enough data, and the previous writeup got lost somewhere in my records (or distributed across several places). Embarrassing, but there it is.

So maybe the MEDIUM RIDE in the 602 series will have a larger diameter bell than the MEDIUM in order to get that additional silvery ping. More high frequency tones is one of the outcomes of a larger diameter bell. But there are other sonic parameters which might be the ones Paiste adjust. There is bell height (another way to get a "larger" bell, there is taper (perhaps more to do with crashability), and there is the amount of bow (which shows how much tension the cymbal is holding). Many parameters which all interact. Or it might be just weight.

Calling CaptainCrunch. Do you have any bell diameter measurements to add in here?

And Black Label, what bell diameter have you got on those two? My guess is that the diameter of both bells will be 5". They look the same in your photos.

Thank you Zenstat. I measured the bells on both my 20" 602's and the 22". Both 20" cymbals (I think they are both Thin Crashes) have 4.5" bells and the 22" have a 5" bell. It would be interesting to see what the bell diameter on a confirmed 22" 602 medium (crash) would be.

Peace to all

Erik

22 medium ride 2790 grams bell 5 3/8"

20 medium ride 2331 grams bell 4 1/2"

20" crash 1800 grams bell 4 5/8"

[IMG]http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a423/paulkneipp/DSC00839_zps47fe3774.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a423/paulkneipp/DSC00842_zps1d4ec65f.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a423/paulkneipp/DSC00841_zps43ce0a1f.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a423/paulkneipp/DSC00840_zps45d5d816.jpg[/IMG]

Thanks guys.

Now I'm feeling like my 5" bell on my 20" (2200g but of unknown model because the ink is gone) is unusually big. Cuirouser and curiouser, said Alice.

CaptainCrunch has been in touch and he's doing more measuring.

I didn't say before that my cymbal making friends (Skiba, Lauritsen, Bettis) tell me that a slightly smaller bell on a ride is part of getting good stick sound (other things being equal). A slightly larger bell on a cymbal can also be a part of creating a better crash, as well as getting more high frequencies in the mix (other things being equal).

I don't know what a 5" bell is doing on my 602, since it isn't thin enough to be a crash. Oh, and my 18" Sound Creation Bright Medium has a 4.5" bell. Note that's the same diameter as the bell on my 20" Medium Dark Ride.

So in summary, so far we've got evidence for the following diameter dies being in use for bells:

4.5"

5"

5.5"

5 3/8"

4 5/8"

@ Funkypoodle: any change you can measure the bell diameter on yours? Even if you can't get it to a scale, knowing the bell diameter would be interesting.

@ Black Label: I'd be really interested to know the weights of any 20" 602s you think are Thin Crashes. You may have mentioned this before in another thread, but I can't remember any weights floating past us. I gave the cut points for different weights of 18" before, but not 20". I'd have to go and recalibrate those. But what I can say (again -- because I believe I mentioned it before) is that while Paiste rides tend to be a bit heavier than, say A or K Zildjians from the same era, this isn't true for Thin Crashes. Paiste Thin Crashes are thin (thus light weight) in anybody's book. The Thins are the next step up, but still low weight on the grand scale of different manufacturers and eras.

Hi Zenstat - I recall them both being in the 1770 - 1820g bracket - I will weigh them again to make sure. I don't have one of those fancy digital scales - mine is a "SWAJ" (small white analogue job) :-)

Thanks. My scale is an analog one, which hangs on the wall job for weighing ingredients in the kitchen with a fold out bowl. I've never invested in a fancy scale. And my kit for measuring is made out of an orange plastic kitchen bowl, an old tailors tape, and a wooden meat skewer:

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2013/602measure.jpg[/img]

so I can measure profile and get bell height (by subtraction).

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2013/602profile.jpg[/img]

It's all kitchen level technology here, except for a pair of vernier calipers I have. I'd really like to come up with a way to measure the thickness of cymbals at the bell hole, part way out the bell, just beyond the bell bow transition, and a couple of places on the way out towards the edge to get a summary of taper. But without some serious investment, all I can measure is at the edge and the bell hole.