Does this have the telltale swirls (radial lines which curve) of rotocasting?

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2013/602looksRotocast3.jpg[/img]

But the rest of the photo shows this to be a 1960s Paiste 602 medium high hat:

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2013/602looksRotocast.jpg[/img]

Did knowing this was a Pasite 602 change your viewpoint? This is one of a number of bell swirl examples I've got which are from cymbals we know are not rotocast

This is why I'm wanting to discuss what patterns are or are not diagnostic evidence of rotocasting. If non rotocast cymbals can have the swirls (presumably an artifact of lathing), and some rotocast cymbals do not have the swirls, then presence/absence of swirls stops being a diagnostic feature just on its own.

The underside of the bell looks like the radial lines are straighter and probably wouldn't be thought of as "curved radial".

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2013/602looksRotocast2.jpg[/img]

Questions for those with some Rotocast cymbal experience: is the "radial lines with swirl" pattern often more obvious under the bell than on top? Or the other way around? Is one side "safer" as a diagnostic feature? Should the pattern have to be on both sides to be thought "diagnostic"?

I don't know if these new pictures of the "Outside of the bell" top of the cymbals help with the roto-cast debate??? The patterns on my hats appear to be more pronounced looking with stronger and smoother swirl angles on them???

These swirls are about the same depth on both sides of each cymbal. On the bottom hat cymbal you can really feel the ridges/swirls...sort of raised with some high and low points but still smooth to the touch. The slight peaks appear in some areas to be more molded in the cymbal than from being scored during lathing (just my guess).

Thanks, again!!!

PS...Zenstat...That pic of the old UFiP 20" ride looks pretty sweet! How's the sound on it???Walking

The two older ones sound like this:

http://black.net.nz/cym2012/twofips.mp3

The second one on the sound file is drier and has an incredibly thin edge which crashes nicely and then gets out of the way quickly. That's the one pictured in my earlier post. They both have that heavy patina look (some might say dirt) and the very visible hammering.

In contrast, the very shiny one is heavier than the other two but very washy. Much more than the lighter ones. I put this down to the bell shape being much more integrated, but I'm not sure. The following recording also has my UFiP hats but I don't really do anything other than go chick chick chick which doesn't show off their sizzling half open sound.

http://black.net.nz/cym2012/ufips.mp3

zenstat, it would seem to me that if the swirls radiated in the same direction, they might indicate rotocast manufacture, but if they are in opposite directions, they might indicate lathe manufacture. Does that make sense to you? Were these cymbals rotocast then lathed? If so, I would think the rotocast marks would be lathed away.........marko

Yes a few of us have asked how much material is removed by lathing, and how can the pattern still be left? I don't know. It may be that the pattern is deep enough in the metal that a light lathing leaves it there. I'm also a bit puzzled by the idea that you can feel the swirl pattern when you run your hand lightly over it. Once the cymbal has been lathed I wouldn't expect there to be much left to feel, unless the lathing has been so light that it hits the hills and doesn't get into the valleys of the pattern. I'd love to take a trip to Italy and check out a cymbal after it comes out of the rotocasting mold but before it gets lathed, and then follow it though the process. There may actually be some photos on the web of that. It has been a long time since I looked.

Lathing of a cymbal, and even the lathing of the bell seems to vary from model to model, even on non-rotocast cymbals. The circular swirl is definitely more about lathing. I've seen that even at times on Zildjians. But so many of the top of the line Italian cymbals seem to have the straighter radial lines at the bell, as Zolcrash demonstrated. I personally haven't seen anything quite like that outside of UFIP, Zanki or Tosco. I had one that seemed to have almost a ripple in the bronze, all the way around the bell. What's that about? My UFIP Bionic ride has bronze drip marks coming from the mounting hole and outward. People see it on forums and always assume that they are some sort of stress cracks or welds made on the bell. The whole top of that cymbal is unlathed, so you get all the extra goodie from the casting.

Ah. It sounds like the radial lines at the bell should be straight to indicate rotocasting, not curved? I'd heard it the other way around. Maybe the answer is that they can be ever so slightly curved. So would your interpretation be:

curved thus not evidence of rotocasting taken by itself:

[img]http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57378&d=1368555332[/img]

curved thus not evidence of rotocasting taken by itself:

[img]http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57399&d=1368584100[/img]

straight enough to be evidence of rotocasting:

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2012/ufip5.jpg[/img]

curved thus not evidence of rotocasting taken by itself:

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2013/602looksRotocast3.jpg[/img]

I'd love to see a photo of the drips on your Bionic hats. Any chance of photographing them? I found that photographing the overall "sheen" of my shiny pyramid stamp is really hard. If I hold it in my hands and turn it though the light it has a very obvious appearance which I take to be rotocasting runs, but just one pic doesn't capture that. I need a little movie but that capability eludes me at the moment. The main thing about the "sheen" on the shiny pyramid stamp ride (as well as the bell of the dirty and hammered one I've shown above) is that the pattern definitely looks like it is IN the metal rather than ON the surface of the metal.

Well, I'm no expert of identifying them. I'm just discovering stuff myself. Here is a pic of my Bionic ride (not hi hats) from the top. It's unlathed. The Natural series is very similar in the way it is finished. The bottom side of this one is micro-lathed with a brilliant finish, just like on the Bionic hats and crashes have.

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53810&stc=1&d=1358024564

Secondly, I included a pic from a Vintage UFIP that I was courting at one point, but didn't purchase. I had a vintage splash that seemed to look the same as this one. It actually felt rippled around the bell where you see the marks. Is that rotocasting? I am unsure, but I've never seen THAT kind of marking on anything but a UFIP.

Yes the bell on the older one certainly has the look of my oldies.

[img]http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57526&d=1368915040[/img]

And the Bionic one, are those what you are calling drips there on the bell? The ones I've put a red arrow to? I'd call that something like a lattice. Or do you mean what I've put the green arrow to? It seems like the original structure changes to a wider drip further from the center?

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2013/bionic.jpg[/img]

Maybe when you lathe the drips that leads to the look which we are seeing?

Like you I'm new to all of this and trying to make a bit of headway. Thanks for all your time.

The top was never touched by a lathe, kind of like the old Zildjian Earth Ride. It doesn't appear to have been sanded at all. Maybe the body was. I don't know. The hallmark of that ride is the bell, so they just left it as untouched as possible. The bottom, however, is lathed and has a brilliant finish.

What I am calling drip is the red arrow. You can run your hand across the bell and feel it. I don't know for sure what the other mark is you are showing. That was when I first got it, so I hadn't even tried to wipe it down. It could be some kind of watermark though, or it could even be a photographic anomaly. I'll have to pull it from the case and look later.