Hello again!!!

Zenstat, Thanks for posting the sound files on those really nice cymbals!!!

OK, Here's a picture of the bell (top of cymbal) from a 1940's/50s 14" 855g Zanchi Vibra high hat. I sure do need to find a close match for this one sweet cymbal!!! I can also feel the ripples and ridges easily on this cymbal too. It's difficult to feel the same type of ripples on the other side (bottom) because of the lathing. However, as you move away from the center (see pictures) you can feel the valleys and ripples easily again.

What would be the ideal weight for the "In-search-of" bottom cymbal so I could get a sound as close as possible to Zildjian 14"-15" 50/60s thin jazz hats??? I know, I know, roto-cast cymbals have their own unique voice and won't sound like thin Zildjian hats. However, what type of mix-matched bottom cymbal would point me closest in the direction to the best qualities of some 50s smooth and jazzy warm sounding type hats???

Thanks!!!Guitar Dude Man

That looks like a sweet one there! As far as what to pair it with, you will definitely see these come up on Ebay fairly often. Double check your sizes though, because most likely, an Italian 14" will be smaller than a Zildjian 14", as the Italian ones were all metric then. More like 13-5/8" or something when measurement is converted.

Before the New beat was introduced in I think 1963, hi hats were generally matched to be close in weight and pitch. If you want that 50's sound, then definitely look for something in the same range. I had a pair of 13" Zildjian hats from the early 60's that were something like 739g/763g. That's pretty close. These days, I know UFIP, for instance, tends to match their hats about 200 grams apart. Anything in that range of -200 would be excellent, in my opinion.

Thanks for the fast reply.

I'll keep looking for one in that weight range.

Thanks again!!!

I'll weigh in on the rotocasting converstion because there are a lot of mysteries. Firstly cymbal companies are universally secretive about just what they do to get the results that they are revered for or they think are beneficial.

When rotocasting was initially used ,it was in order to deliver an as impurity free and as complete a blank as possible. This was labour saving ,in the extreme. No longer did the cymbal need to be partially shaped by milling and there would have been an immediate reduction in culls or seconds. As a result of the process, there are telltale signs , the curved flutes on the bell and bow, are supposed to be signs. Another is the relative freedom from pock marks and inclusions on the surface.

A picture was posted of a Paiste 602 , showing multiple curved flutes and I have seen the very same thing on A. Zildjian cymbals. Perhaps , there are multiple reasons for these marks.

I was always led to believe that 602's were sheet spun cymbals , from a specific alloy---made in a similar process as this [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLuoE_xSMsU[/ame]. Many , mostly cheaper cymbals are done in this way. There is always the possibility of hot spinning, which might cause even different marks. It would be easy to leave marks during spinning and lathing, that might mimic rotocasting marks. Both Paiste and A. Zildjian did/do make sheet spun cymbals but maybe they used rotocasting as well.

As the molten metal flows to the perimeter of a rotocast blank, it will be cooling and becoming less liquid. I have seen a number of cymbals that have these telltale waves ,at the edge, that look like the material was still spinning as it solidified. Here is a current VDF link , showing telltale wavy , rimples, at around 2:00 http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17650&d=1277256311

The Pinkstoerber, quote regarding rotocasting never being used at TOSCO, could have been deliberately misleading. Tosco and UFIP had a close relationship and there is some evidence that they both made custom runs for some of the same companies , over the years. It would have been completely likely that Tosco would have farmed out some rotocasting to UFIP, on their behalf , even if they didn't use the technique in house.

Let's not forget that one of hallmarks of a rotocast cymbal vs. a sheet cymbal or an ingot that's been rolled out is that of a thicker bell. Punching a bell into a sheet of bronze forces stretching to occur, whereby the bell is bound to be slightly thinner than the area just outside of the bell. Plus, the rotocast UFIP pies are just created to have a thicker bell in the first place. It goes back to their church bell roots.

It sounds reasonable.The UFIP bells I have had the privelege of hitting, all had an alluring broad ring to them, very solid and reassuring ,when compared to many other cymbals.