Paint is a bad example for me, but I understand what you are saying. I think I explained myself pretty well in that original statement; I don't have an overwhelming reason to switch brands. If, on the other hand, I tended to break my Zildjians all the time, I might look elsewhere for another manufacturer's cymbals. But, as far as 'shades of color' from one brand, I think that there really isn't much in the way of competition with Zildjian, which I understand, dilution is not a good thing either ("do one thing, and do it well."), but they have done OK for themselves, and the K Cons seem to be them finding their way back on the straight and narrow. The ZHT etc. lines keep the lights on for them...

I think you misunderstood my post, based on your reply. I was not indicating the local shop did not allow me to try cymbals there (quite the contrary- I go at odd hours and can set up cymbals on a kit and lay a bit if I want to); I was referring to ZILDJIAN's huge cymbal test area. According to the guy in the store, Zildjian does not allow us peasant scum to actually test and buy cymbals at the factory. I have not got confirmation one way or the other on that, but just was throwing that out there.

I have a fried living in Williamsburg, so I might have to pay him a visit soon...

I agree, but at the same time, there are no independents around me! The two closest stores are Sam Ass and Guitar Splinter. A bit further away is an independent, under new ownership. I am good friends with the old owner and used to support him (I lived closer to that store then but also had other independent choices then as well). Long story short, even Daddy's is gone now! (best of the chains in my opinion). So, our current choices are chain store, or on-line for every-day things like sticks and heads. I don't like it any more than you do, but I can't spend $20.00 in gas to get a $10.00 pair of sticks...

The real solution is to open more independent shops- and that is no small task (but one I have considered with the help of the former owner of the independent shop mentioned above).

I saw a similar decline in high-end audio... It was generally required to move a certain volume and/or $$ amount to keep your 'authorized dealer' status. The shops who would not cram product down your throat (AKA "the good ones") Bit the dust because of it...

I'll admit that I certainly don't have any hard financial facts and figures to back this up, but it seems to me that Z has more competition today than ever. There has been a huge outcry against business-as-usual (i.e., bad cymbals) at Z ... resulting in people experimenting more than ever with the proliferation of European and Turkish brands that are becoming more and more available -- practically ubiquitous in some places.

Other than in the big chains, I just don't see Z (let alone Sabian) being promoted that heavily. Personally, I haven't bought a new Z since the mid-'80s. If I were an endorsee and getting prototypes made for me, it might be a different story (as I eluded to earlier). But, just because the company is capable of making outrageously wonderful cymbals doesn't mean that it does ... let alone that you're going to find one/some/many hanging on the racks at GC, etc. I guess visiting the factory and paying full MSRP might be the way to go if you insist on going Z?

That said, you're not the least bit curious about what's going on at Istanbul, for example? If you take a much longer timeline than, say, '80s onward -- and you're interested in staying loyal to the sound and spirit and principles that made Z great -- then I would think that Istanbul would be the place to find you. If it's just brand/family-name loyalty, though, then no ... you'd be totally in the right.

Yes, I completely misunderstood that. Apologies. Still ****ed about my hi-hat clutch, though! :D

Agree on both counts: "real solution" and "no small task."

I am curious about others but have not heard anything else that has made me say "holy cr#P" and look to dump all I have to get the latest and greatest (or oldest) thing. If that happens, I may well change to another brand. All I want to do is supplement what I have (80's vintage A's) with something a bit different... I don't know exactly what that is, but started my quest thinking it might be K's from the same era, as a lot of drummers I listen to and have heard recorded were using 80's K's.

But now, and all the makers seem to be headed this way, they seem to want to make [something to replace/replicate] old K Zildjian cymbals, which is fantastic, if that is a sound you are coveting. I don't seem to be in that camp, so the cymbals giving everyone else a hard on is not necessarily doing it for me. That's all, for now.

I also don't believe all the old K cymbals were what is being produced today either- I think certain qualities of the old K cymbals have been 'amplified' and others 'reduced' to get the "signature old K sound" which may not truly be right- yes, the old K's are "trashy" but nothing like any new K or what I have heard from other makers in the last few years. I think what makes the vintage cymbals so great is the variance piece to piece and the combination of the trashy sound with the high pitched sounds; pure tones with a bit of rattle-n-hum. No one element of that combination is really where it's at to say "THAT is an old K sound".

I also understand I can listen to 10 20" rides that are "the same" and find one or two great ones (or at least tolerable ones). I have to imagine choosing old K's in the day was a lot like when I was choosing my Wuhan china in the 80's... I tried quite a few (maybe 10-12 per size) to find "the one" and I still have it. So much complexity to the sound there...

One man's trash is another's treasure has never been more true it seems...

Wow! Awesome post that beautifully captures a ton of relevant and current cymbal sentiment IMHO.

The '80s were a real growing-pains period for Z so far as Ks were concerned (and so far as I know) -- after the clunky(?) EAK period and before they hit any kind of stride. I think I mentioned buying my last Z in the mid-'80s ... it was a 17" K Dark Crash, which I bought w/o hearing it first. It wasn't "dark" as was advertised in ink across the bridge. And it wasn't much of a crash. It was just ... well ... clangy. As were many of them, come to find out. Not all, though, and I had my sights set on a gorgeous 18" example from the same time period about a year ago. It was cracked, though, and seller and I couldn't come to an agreement on price.

Love this! Kind of feels like a flavor-of-the-month (or decade?) kind of thing, doesn't it?

This is just right on. The "old K clones" are pretty much caricatures. Very often ugly and exaggerated ... sometimes just silly. Old Ks are wonderful because they're so generic. They're just cymbals. Not rides, not crashes, not EFX-whatevers ... just whatever you make them/put into them/get out of them. Blank canvases. Completely different according to player. They take on *your* playing qualities -- which is why they're so damned hard to play ... LOL! Good luck finding *the* Nefertiti ride! is what I'm trying to say.

Who knows? I get so wrapped up in all of this and then I read (and re-read) this:

Yeah, maybe simple for Elvin ... LOL!

That is too funny that you mention a 18" Rock Crash..

I bought one sometime in the 80's brand new,and I remember every time I went to fit it,I thought to myself "Be sure to hit it extra hard,otherwise it will not open up and crash"..

HORRIBLE thing it was!Yes Sir

Have you checked out Paiste traditionals or the Twenty series? The 20" light rides are great crashes if you're into that sort of thing.

BTW... all the this garbage can lid talk reminded me that Jim Keltner used a riveted garbage can lid on "Josie." So there you go.

My 19" medium crash is a close second; however I am finding it makes a fantastic ride/crash or "left hand ride". The bell is good and it has a nice stick to it...

Are you like psycotic or something? I was- no kidding just a few minutes ago looking at the Paiste web site. The 20 series does look interesting, but how does it sound I wonder...

I'll keep looking. I may spend a day at Long Island drum center soon and try out all I can there...

Don't bother.

Take the train into the city and spend a couple hours at Maxwells.

I'm overdue for a city visit anyway...:)