Is that you can't hear them. I am convinced, after 5 intensive years of buying vintage kits on line, is that it's generally not worth it. I think there are too many people buying vintage kits who don't care what they sound like. They are just happy to have the classic look. But the fact is that a lot of old drums are not round and really don't sound that good. A drum that is not round will never sound as good as it should. Even Keller cannot guarantee a round shell. Out of all the vintage kits I have traded, few really were consistently excellent across all the drums. Camcos spring to mind; as do some Gretsch. The great sounding kits are traded privately or at more expensive locations. I've come across many killer bass drums - they suffer less from the effects of the "oval disease" because of their size; snare drums are tuned much tighter so they can get by too. But the number of Ludwig toms out there that are 1/16" higher on one side than the other is amazing. Did you know that many Super Classic era toms have the wrap embedded into the ply? Buyers never measure them and if they buy on eBay, they can't. That's why modern kits, with inferior timbers, generally sustain longer - because the manufacturing is better. But the real problem is that many drummers are not discerning. A guitarist will fuss over a fret that is one millimetre out and yet the average drummer will play just about anything. I'd hate to be a custom drum builder these days. Forget the shells - just find some really nice WMP.
The problem with buying vintage drums on the web
I don't think the level of precision was as critical back then as it is today. Not that the quality wasn't there, although I have seen some pretty sloppy Slingerland shells. I think most old shells could stand to be trued up, not recut just fine tuned, if you are going to play them. Just my opinion.
There are problems buying on Ebay and Craigslist for that matter. The real problem is that people expect the "Vintage" or "Classic" kits is they expect them to sound like a newer made kit. They'll clean them up and slap Pinstripes, Double Ply, Hydraulic, Sounds Rings, Dots, etc and wonder why they sound awful. That doesn't mean you can't get a ok sound from using heads like this on a Vintage kit, you can, just don't expect miracles.
The Vintage kits were MADE for Vintage type heads. Single ply Mylar (Remo Ambassador, Diplomat, Emperor, textured) or Calfskin. That's the deal. Yes the old kits have their issues, you mentioned the tom being 1/16 off on one side, that's due to the mounting. A "Hanging" drum will loose it's shape, so will a bass drum laying on it's side "flatten" after a while.
Us old guys know all the flaws and foibles of these kits and we know all the tricks and tips of getting around all the "problems", we grew up with those problems.
I think the biggest problem is that a LOT of drummers really don't know how to tune a drum head. Picking the right head and learning proper tuning, without using that stupid Drum Dial, needs to be learned. That comes with time OR ask an older player to teach you.
A well tuned drum should sing! A clear tone, like a note and resonate. Not sound like your banging on Tupperwear garbage cans. If that garbage can sound is what you like or you think sounds good, you have my best wishes, just don't get upset when the guys in the band cringe everytime you play or your sound man winces.
Once you have the "Note" then you can muffle or mute it.
Sound preferences change. I happen to like some drums that sustain a long time and I also like some drums that don't sustain a long time. Sustain is just one component of a drum's sound.
I can't ever really decide what "better" means. I played a gig Sunday night and decided to bring an assemblage of old Ludwig drums. All the drums are slightly out of round. The toms don't sustain the longest. The tuning range is lessened because of the rounded bearing edges. The wraps are tucked into the seams. Guess what? They sounded just right!
Granted, if I stood two tom toms, side-by-side, and then compared the sustain, I'm almost certain the modern drum would "win". But, who plays drums that way? Eye Ball I can apply a short-sustaining tom tom sound about the same as a long-sustaining tom tom sound. They both have their limitations and there are instances where a long-sustaining drum is detrimental to the music.
In the 70's, people took off the bottom (resonant) heads. In the late 70's/early 80's both heads were back, but those heads were oil-filled and deader than ever! Then electronics entered the scene. Then it got "organic again. Any kind of art is never supposed to reach a perfected state, anyway.
As far as better manufacturing goes, I can't really say. I do know that my vintage drums have been around a long time and I'm still playing them! That's kind of proof of the quality of their manufacture.
"Nietzsche is dead." -God
I've bought and sold over 40 vintage sets. Other than Ludwigs with "flat spots" (and that's how they were made), I can't remember more than a couple out of round drums. Most that I've had, tuned up well. Whether I bought them on ebay, or at flea markets, I never "measured" them before I bought them.
I've also found that most of the folks that buy vintage kits, even with their imperfections, put away or sell the modern drums. Usually, they end up wanting more vintage stuff.
Is that you can't hear them. I am convinced, after 5 intensive years of buying vintage kits on line, is that it's generally not worth it. I think there are too many people buying vintage kits who don't care what they sound like. They are just happy to have the classic look. But the fact is that a lot of old drums are not round and really don't sound that good. A drum that is not round will never sound as good as it should. Even Keller cannot guarantee a round shell. Out of all the vintage kits I have traded, few really were consistently excellent across all the drums. Camcos spring to mind; as do some Gretsch. The great sounding kits are traded privately or at more expensive locations. I've come across many killer bass drums - they suffer less from the effects of the "oval disease" because of their size; snare drums are tuned much tighter so they can get by too. But the number of Ludwig toms out there that are 1/16" higher on one side than the other is amazing. Did you know that many Super Classic era toms have the wrap embedded into the ply? Buyers never measure them and if they buy on eBay, they can't. That's why modern kits, with inferior timbers, generally sustain longer - because the manufacturing is better. But the real problem is that many drummers are not discerning. A guitarist will fuss over a fret that is one millimetre out and yet the average drummer will play just about anything. I'd hate to be a custom drum builder these days. Forget the shells - just find some really nice WMP.
I don't mind the limitations of vintage equipment, if you can even call it that. But I had a cool kit of Ludwig Ringo's, 20k, 14f, 12r absolutely PRISTINE condition, but the 12 was dead, like DEAD I tell you, sounded like Ringo himself had his hand on the head muffling it. Needless to say, I got rid of the kit, If I can't play it I don't want to own it.
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I don't mind the limitations of vintage equipment, if you can even call it that. But I had a cool kit of Ludwig Ringo's, 20k, 14f, 12r absolutely PRISTINE condition, but the 12 was dead, like DEAD I tell you, sounded like Ringo himself had his hand on the head muffling it. Needless to say, I got rid of the kit, If I can't play it I don't want to own it...
My '64 Luddie BDPs are 20, 12 and 16. I have tons of sustain on both toms. I can tune the 12 low or high, it sounds great. Maybe I'm lucky? I'm using Aquarian regular coateds on the tops and clears on the bottoms, but I've also used Remo and Attack without any problems.
My '69 kit has amazing shell quality and it's factory 22, 13, 16...no problem with their sound at all. As for the wrap being an actual ply on the earlier Luddies, I think it's pretty cool actually. My heads got a flat stop in the back too :)
Also, somebody mentioned Remo Emperors in a list of single ply heads. Aren't Emperors 2 ply?
Matt
My '64 Luddie BDPs are 20, 12 and 16. I have tons of sustain on both toms. I can tune the 12 low or high, it sounds great. Maybe I'm lucky? I'm using Aquarian regular coateds on the tops and clears on the bottoms, but I've also used Remo and Attack without any problems. My '69 kit has amazing shell quality and it's factory 22, 13, 16...no problem with their sound at all. As for the wrap being an actual ply on the earlier Luddies, I think it's pretty cool actually. My heads got a flat stop in the back too :)Also, somebody mentioned Remo Emperors in a list of single ply heads. Aren't Emperors 2 ply?Matt
I guess mine were just dawgs, it happens. But I got my WMP club dates now, so it's all good!!
Yeah, Emperors are 2 ply!!
I don't mind the limitations of vintage equipment, if you can even call it that. But I had a cool kit of Ludwig Ringo's, 20k, 14f, 12r absolutely PRISTINE condition, but the 12 was dead, like DEAD I tell you, sounded like Ringo himself had his hand on the head muffling it. Needless to say, I got rid of the kit, If I can't play it I don't want to own it...
I have had that problem with the snare that came with my 66 Slingerlands. It just never sounded good. Last night I was determined to get it sounding good. It is a 5 1/2x14 3 ply, 6 lug. I ended up putting on an Evans G1 coated with an Evans hazy 200 on the bottom and a set of vintage wires. The best it ever sounded but still not great. Any suggestions? I wonder if the snare beds are off.
I have had that problem with the snare that came with my 66 Slingerlands. It just never sounded good. Last night I was determined to get it sounding good. It is a 5 1/2x14 3 ply, 6 lug. I ended up putting on an Evans G1 coated with an Evans hazy 200 on the bottom and a set of vintage wires. The best it ever sounded but still not great. Any suggestions? I wonder if the snare beds are off.
"Sounding good" is as subjective as it gets. Maybe a 6 lug wooden Slingerland just isn't the sound you're looking for...
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