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Best Heads For MIJ 3 Ply Kit?

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I'm losing my patience...I have a mint 3ply kit with re-rings and very nice round over bearing edges...I just can't dial any of these drums in...14, 16, 20"

This isn't my first MIJ kit. I've had great luck with a 6ply Star to the point that my Ludwig snob friend was even impressed...

Here's what I have in place:

Snare: Reso has clear Remo Ambassador snare, batter has Aquarian coated Z-100. Has PureSound 16 wires

Floor Tom: Reso has Remo clear Ambassador, batter has Aquarian High Frequency Coated

Bass Drum: Reso has Remo coated Ambassador, batter has Aquarian American Vintage Medium, coated

I've tuned them high and low, but I just can't find the sweet spot. Any magic combination to get the most out of these 3ply kits?

Posted on 12 years ago
#1
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I don't mean to sound stupid or to imply ignorance when I say.........

Have you tried stripping all the hardware off and knocking the shells to determine the note that they will naturally resonate at? "Timbre pitching" as it is called. I then write that note on the inside of the shell for eternal reference. Then, tune both heads to that note for maximum resonance. From there, you can use any number of techniques to limit off the ring (the "sing" as I like to call it....as when everything is dialed in to the shell's pitch, they just 'sing'). I use studio rings to warm them up. I have also seen a bunch of stuff on the head (you know moon gel, tape, etc.)....BUT I have also seen at that point de-tuning one of the lugs to choke it off a bit. It's all preference of course.

I have always had great luck with this technique (not referring to the 'de-tuning' of any lugs/rods) but then again, I use clear heads and no coated (except for snare of course).

Just a suggestions to go back to the basics and start by finding the bare-boned natural pitch of the shell.

This approach, along with having my edges recut (THAT is something to consider!! --- are they TRUE?), revolutionized my first MIJ and every MIJ since. Sad thing is, the timbre pitching technique was not learned by me until about 2001 (15 years after starting to drum with my first MIJ) and did not learn to get my edges recut until last year (25 years into my drumming). Myself, I don't care about a certain interval of pitches between the drums - like drummers who tune their toms to the bass player. I mean, have you ever heard anybody EVER say "Awe bummer, that guys toms are not tuned to the bass player" or "Awe bummer, that drummers toms are sound fantastic, but are just out of tune (implying out of tune with the bass player)."

Of course we have not heard such a thing....

I believe it is much more important to tune to the shell so as to get the most musicality of the instrument for all it is worth. I guess I would really get along well with the folks at DW.

Note: EDGES: There is alot to this. This is more important than if the drum is perfectly 'in round'. I have also learned that some GREAT sounding drums can be 'out of round' and this can be attributed to the edges being perfect and the tuning to the shell. Edges - are they flat (even all around - you know, the flashlight test)? are they consistently cut all the way around? I have a drum guy that I go to who has been building drums for about 40 years and is known around the world for his work. I do marathon sessions with him (about 4-6 hours), with him going over a minimum of a dozen shells at a time, which results in him cutting me a realy good deal - a volume discount. I drool at his shop and how awesome it is - really knowledgeable and cool guy too.

Another note: all of my MIJs are 6 or 9 ply. Though the 3 ply are 'different' I have no reason to believe that this factor would negate the truths of true-ness of edges and timbre-pitching.

Best of Blessings,

John

I had a great day! Instead of sleeping in and wasting the day, I got up at 8 and I had all my slacking done by noon!

2Timothy1:7
Posted on 12 years ago
#2
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I've heard of the knocking technique, but am not clear on the exact procedure. I'd be willing to try it if there is a chance it will work with a 3ply...

So, how do I know what the sweet "note" is and how do I know when I've found it?

What's the whole process? Sounds complex, but interesting....

Posted on 12 years ago
#3
Posts: 1244 Threads: 204
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I believe my kit is 3 ply but no re-rings. I have the snare the same as you (mine is a 6 lugger) w/ an Aquarian Z100 coated, except an Evans hazy 300 snare side head. 12" and 14" have Remo coated Emperor batters and Remo Diplomat clear resos. I have an EMAD2 bass batter with a Aquarian ported reso. I like it.

I had changed the snare head after this pic.

[IMG]http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l407/olimpass/P9230021.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l407/olimpass/P9230026.jpg[/IMG]

Posted on 12 years ago
#4
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Thanks Olimpass for the head suggestions. I'll go that route for a change. I've only used Aquarians because that's what I read works best with these kits, but I'll give Remo a try. Sometimes I feel the Aquarians choke the drum a bit...

Does that batter bass head come with that muffler ring or did you retro fit one?

Did you upgrade your snare throw?

Our kits are pretty close. What do you have? US Mercury, Stewart, Apollo...?

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Posted on 12 years ago
#5
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Well, Surfcollector,

You know how difficult it can be to describe sounds with letters. So, I will offer what I can, but you will have to experiment to figure the rest out - which I am confident you will be able to. I did not follow any technique that I read about, just heard about it here and there and did it. I'll do my best to describe it.

First, after stripping the shell of all metal, hang it from the inside with your finger and then knock the outside of it with your fist. This identifying what note it naturally resonates at will be the easiest part of this process. I suggest marking that note on the inside of your shell for (future/eternal) reference. Next, reinstall all the hardware and start with - well - either head really. I set the drum on a carpeted floor or on my bed and tune the head to that note. I tune the note that I hear when I tap on the edge near each lug. I do not tune it hanging or in the air - I tune it when it is somewhat muffled, so that all I am hearing is the head (for the most part) and not anything that is produced by the rest of the drum. When I do the second head, I muffle the other head (on the bed is ideal) and likewise, tune the note you hear when you hit the edge of the head. Obviously make sure all the (lugs) are tuned to that same note - but this is when the edges come into play. You will not be able to tune all the lugs to that one note if your edges are not true (Lugs)will climb when you tighten a different lug, for example. BTW, while I am thinking about it, I use a guitar tuner - one that you blow into and it only has 6 notes. If my note is not one of those 6, I simply sing or hum to myself and identify the note that way.

I have a Red Onyx ("Red Agate Pearl") whatever you care to call it - exactly like this one Olimpass has (what are the odds-here on the same thread) and in fact have pics of his kit saved on my computer as a vision of what mine will look like when I am done restoring it-except I am going to have a additional 10 inch add-on that I am building. The only difference is that I have 8 lugs on my snare,FT, and BD. I picked it up for $100!!!!-was sitting in (a) grandma's basement. I THINK it is a 3 ply and it will by my first 3, but indeed my BD is not (I think it is 6 or 7 or even maybe 9). It's been a while since I have looked at it honestly. BTW -it has NO BADGE but believe it is Star made. My case in point (several sentences ago!) is that the fact is, I have not even put heads on this thing yet (though everything has been thoroughly cleaned and polished and such) because I have not yet taken these shells to my drum guy. I will not seat (is that the term) new heads on this until the shells have been deemed true (or re-cut) by my drum guy. I will not risk wasting new heads until that step is done. They have been that way for about 6 months now waiting for me to take them to my edge guy. I plan on doing this in April when I will have the time and will be bartering with him with some Rogers hardware I scored when I bought a (different) kit to flip (which included a bunch of good cymbals). Anyway----point is ---- the edges must be checked and possibly recut to make this process worthwhile.

I might as well share - I bought some brand new ddrum dominions (that were discontinued) last spring. I was really upset when I discovered that the shells were not perfectly round. After MUCH consultation (including phone conversations with custom builders and indeed the president and founder of Pork Pie) I learned that a PERFECTLY IN-ROUND shell is not necessary.....and that there is a parameter that it must be within for it not to be an issue. I took my new ddrum shells to me drum builder guy who deemed them within spec. Then, I felt comfortable putting new heads on them and they ended up sounding great. Meanwhile, I had had trouble with several of my drums for years (old MIJs) and he discovered that the edges were not true, re-cut them, and after I used this method-they sounded amazing.

Continuing - tune the 2nd head the same way with the other head muffled (on bed) and in the end when you play it, that note that you discovered should ring out with excellent long lasting sustain (just SING) Muffle to your preference with your preferred method and you are all set. Now the next time you go to re-tune that drum or install new heads on there, you have the target note to shoot for and it will be much easier next time.

My advice- if you have not already, take it to your local drum builder/edge guy who can inspect the edges and re-cut them if needed - BEFORE slapping new heads on there. NOTE (which you may already know) if any edgework is done, new heads are then required because your old heads were seated to the (improper/untrue) edge(s).

One last note: If you do not have a regular drum builder that you use or an 'edge guy' (or shoot perhaps you do this stuff yourself?!?!?!) then you can easily find one by doing the following. Call Anderson Trading in Anaheim

www.aitwood.com

(ask for Bonnie) and they/she can refer you to one of their customers (that buy drum shells from them) that lives close to you. They will look it up by city or zip. They are very nice and helpful people. Tell her what you are doing and she will help you out.

After using this method (and I use studio rings), I have had engineers and producers in the studio comment that they already sound so good they will not have to do much of anything in the mixing process.

Best Blessings,

John

I had a great day! Instead of sleeping in and wasting the day, I got up at 8 and I had all my slacking done by noon!

2Timothy1:7
Posted on 12 years ago
#6
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WHAT!!!!!! YOUR'S is a Red Onyx too!!!!! What do you know...the Red Onyx club right here! I posted some pics of mine somewhere on this forum-can't remember where.....ah -what the hell -here is a pic of mine.....

of course still not done. and BTW, I bought some black wood hoops for my BD and will be using the matching inlays I took off my steel hoops before I sold those. (Wood hoops make a HUGE difference).

Who has the WERCO with the black wood hoops and the black front head at one time (pics taken outside)?

Also,

John

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I had a great day! Instead of sleeping in and wasting the day, I got up at 8 and I had all my slacking done by noon!

2Timothy1:7
Posted on 12 years ago
#7
Posts: 1244 Threads: 204
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From surfcollector

Thanks Olimpass for the head suggestions. I'll go that route for a change. I've only used Aquarians because that's what I read works best with these kits, but I'll give Remo a try. Sometimes I feel the Aquarians choke the drum a bit...Does that batter bass head come with that muffler ring or did you retro fit one?Did you upgrade your snare throw?Our kits are pretty close. What do you have? US Mercury, Stewart, Apollo...?

Sweet Kit surfcollector!

I did prefer the Aquarian Z-100 for the snare.

The Bass drum batter comes with two different size inserts (1.5" and 1")

Someone else had replaced the snare throw

Mine is a Werco

Posted on 12 years ago
#8
Posts: 1244 Threads: 204
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From Drummerjohn333

Who has the WERCO with the black wood hoops and the black front head at one time (pics taken outside)?Also, John

Nice kit you have too John!

Yes, that was me.

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Posted on 12 years ago
#9
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The Aquarian SuperKick1 is great for a bass batter head. It has a built in foam muffling ring. Remo pinstripes resonate nicely on the 3ply toms, without so much ring. I still like the z100 on the snare batter & Remo clear snare on the snare side. You can loosen the 4 t rods next to the snare wires 1/8 of a turn after tuning to open up the tone of the drum. It's helped my snare tone every time.

Good luck!

Brian

'65/'66 Slingerland Stage Band in Red Sparkle Pearl
'67 Rogers Buddy Rich Headliner in Blue Sparkle Pearl
'49 WFL 6.5x14 Contest Snare
'55 Slingerland 7x14 Hollywood Ace Snare
'70's Premier PD2000 5x14 Snare
50's & 70's Zildjian/Paiste Cymbals
Posted on 12 years ago
#10
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