You mean to tell me that after all those years on Cymbalholic, you never even once looked at my gallery? I'm deeply hurt by that…

http://www.cymbalholic.com/gallery/showgallery.php/ppuser/7/cat/500

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]Here's some examples of the pre-war A's:[/size][/font][/color]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/18%20A%201940.JPG[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]Here's an 18" which to me looks like what Shelley might have been playing. This is an early pre-war era type which clearly shows the bell style used then.[/size][/font][/color]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/websize/P1010248.JPG[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]Here's a 20" example; also an early era type. Later during this same trademark period, the bells became larger and more in line with what we might consider "normal" by today's standards.[/size][/font][/color]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/PICT0013.JPG[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]Here's an example of one of the later era types with the larger bell. The hammering style also changed by this time too.[/size][/font][/color]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/21%20pre%20war.jpg[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]This 21" is an example of an extremely rare size for this period, and is also one of the later era types. Large cymbals like this were just beginning to be made thanks to the request made by Gene Krupa.[/size][/font][/color]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/PICT0655.JPG[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]Here's the pre-war old stamp "family photo". The top 2 are both early types; a 20" and an 18". The bottom pair are late era matched 14" hi-hats.[/size][/font][/color]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/large/40s%20combo.jpg[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]Here's a side by side comparison of early vs. later showing the bell size differences.[/size][/font][/color]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]Now some example of type I OS K's that were being made in Turkey at the same time as the pre-war old stamp A's were being made here:[/size][/font][/color]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/P1010115.JPG[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]A 16". These cymbals followed the same "rule". Early types were small bell, and later types got bigger ones.[/size][/font][/color]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/P1010228.jpg[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]An 18"[/size][/font][/color]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/P1010151.JPG[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]A side view showing the same 18" so you can see the glassy finish, which is similar to what you see on Shelly's cymbal, but both the A's and the K's had the were similarly lathed during this era.[/size][/font][/color]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/P1010416.JPG[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]A 20" [/size][/font][/color]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/type%201.JPG[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]Another 20" [/size][/font][/color]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/Copy%20of%2020%20K%20type%20I%20Fr2.JPG[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]And yet another 20", only this one is from later in the era. The bells became much larger as they graded into the beginning of the type IIa era, where the bells were similarly larger. These type I bells were also quite flat, as compared to their A counterparts.[/size][/font][/color]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]The question was once raised on Cymbalholic but no was mention made here of his ever using any K's. This doesn't mean its the last word on the subject though:[/size][/font][/color]

http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showthread.php?39637-Shelly-Manne-s-gear

Well those look like the ones alright. As usual absolutely awesome pictures Bill. Ha, of course I saw your gallery, many times. What I meant was I've never seen one in person.

If anyone can present any compelling evidence that Shelly Manne ever played K. Zildjians,...

then let him do so now; or forever hold himself.

Would love to see that too. In the mean time I'll just hold myself.

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/shelly%20at%20Zildjian%201951.jpg[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]This ad which is from 1951, when Shelly Manne was endorsing Gretsch, also shows that he was endorsing Avedis Zildjian cymbals as you can read from the text on the left.

[/size][/font][/color]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/AZildjian2.jpg[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]

Here you see, left to right: Avedis and Armand Zildjian listen to Shelly Manne testing ride cymbals in 1947.

[/size][/font][/color]

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/drumaholic/cymbalexamples/websize/Shelly%20with%20Kenton.jpg[/img]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]Shelly Manne playing with Stan Kenton[/size][/font][/color]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShgRMUkNXBM[/ame]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]It's 1958 and he's playing Gretsch. The cymbals are Avedis.

[/size][/font][/color]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFC90H_uu7w[/ame][color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]And here he is in 1958 playing Gretsch again with the exact same set of cymbals that were shown at the beginning of this thread.[/size][/font][/color]

[color=purple3][font=Times New Roman][size=+1]I think it can be safely said that he was indeed playing pre-war old stamp A's here as originally posited.

And so I rest my case.[/size][/font][/color]

Thanks for posting this nice time capsule- nice clips and I agree with your point.

Cool thread; he might not have been playing K's, but he did have an actual Chinese Cymbal (as he called it "old-style Chinese cymbal") in his set-up, prior to Zildjian making Swish cymbals.

And wow...from the advert, a 26" Zildjian Swish? That must be a rare bird to find these days....

And that would be the one shown with him in the Stan Kenton band photo.

Exactly...cool shots, for sure.

Anyone here ever laid eyes on the 26" A Zildjian Swish? Or sticks, for that matter?