I could on about this... I think there were (are) a number of problems. One being that albums are recorded/engineered/mixed to whatever sounds popular at the time. Another is, as you mentioned, drummers being non-assertive when it comes to their tone. Yet another issue is that there are a number of good players who can't tune their own drums to save their lives. I know many, unfortunately.

One thing that burns me up is this: My brother recently went to a recording session. He didn't know anyone, but had been hired for his reputation as a great drummer. He arrived with a carload of gear (drums, cymbals, etc) and was promptly told by the studio owner, "well, you are going to be playing on my gear, because it'll record better than your stuff."

That infuriated me to hear. My brother managed to remain calm and objective over the course of the session. As time went on, he'd listen back and criticize things he heard, then re-cut the track with, for example, HIS ride cymbal. By the day's end, he was using ALL of his cymbals. He actually thought the drums themselves sounded *fairly* good, but was put off by the initial treatment he received.

The studio owner/engineer even said at one point (sheepishly), "Well, I'm not a drummer, so..."

I guess that sort of thing sort of walks the line between "Are you hiring me to play because you want *ME* and my sound/abilities, or are you hiring me because you need a warm body to lay down a predetermined drum track using predetermined sounds because you're either unwilling or unable to do it yourself?"

And yet, I could go on even more...

Aye... I had that one on CD for a while. All my CDs were stolen and that's one that I never replaced. To the untrained ear, it sounds like Buddy Rich vs. Some Guy, simply because their styles are SOOO different. It's an apples vs. oranges kind of drum battle.

But I need to replace that one. I'd forgotten about it. Thanks for jogging my memory! :)

Simon Phillips... Yikes. Yeah, listen to the live Toto stuff. Amazingly nice drum sounds. I tried to emulate his tuning method (Same heads top and bottom, tuned identically). Didn't work... LOL. But then again, I'm not Simon Phillips! :P

Bingo... I really lay it at the feet of the producer/engineer. That's a great example you provided. I have to believe that they get into that pattern of "it works, so I'll keep working it" and they never really challenge themselves to grow in that area (I think another way to say it is they let their ear become lazy). I get that somebody may only be paying for a few hours of studio time and the clock is tickin' so they gotta do what they gotta do.

I just really hate that over processed sound of so many mainstream records seem to posses (an easy example to cite is the new generation of Aerosmith -- oddly enough it hurts my ears at any volume!)

I went to a Simon Phillips drum clinic in the real early eighties and was thinking WTF as the drums were being setup and tuned they were so wide open and snare rattling and toms buzzing and I was wondering how he was going to pull it together. Mind you we were coming out of that cardboard Don Henley single head muffled tom recording era, were live the board man would just add the bass and reverb to fatten the sound up. But after Simon's final tune and the first couple of notes I was totally hooked on that wide open sound (which I quickly adopted). Also I couldn't believe that the producers/engineers couldn't capture Simon's sound that I heard that night on his earlier records -- think "Sin After Sin" (Judas Priest) There and Back (Jeff Beck) MSG (Michael Schenker) -- all flat and boring drum sounds. I wish they could remix that stuff 'cause I sure would love to hear it should have been.... You know more like the sound of the mid-eighties that was capture on White City (Pete Townsend) and Russ Ballard's self titled album ('member "Voices"...)

Vigilantes of Love - Summershine ...

Dave Brubeck - Time Changes ...

I'm sure there are others. Just ain't poppin' into the gray.

My Number one Influence was and is Stymie from our Gang!!Clapping Happy2Jumping2[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFnJa9Tlk0k[/ame]

Mad props to that, brother!!

The only 2 words I am going to say about modern recording, and whats ruining it:

DRUM TRIGGERS

They're taking all the needed ability away from drumming, and making digital sounds where acoustic resonation would, should, and needs to occur...but as with all of the other posts, this is just my opinion.

And Vinnie Pauls 24x24 inch bass drums get me every time I hear them.

D' Drummer

I agree 100% about the drum triggers ruining it especially metal drumming but doesn't Vinnie Paul use them?

Yea, unfortuanelty now he does. As soon as he signed on to endorse DDrum, he went over to triggers. He never used them before with Pantera when he was playing Tama or Pearl...it was a big disappointment when I found that out.

Falling Do

I think I remember a lot of people making a big stink about it because he used to speak out against triggering.

Check out the album Attera Toctus Sanctus by a band called Dark Funeral if you want to hear some insane trigger free metal drumming

My drum sound inspirations come from:

Mitch Mitchell - Manic Depression - just that really raw, classic 60's rock sound

John Bonham - You shook Me - or any Zep song will do.

Max Roach - St. Thomas - beautiful tones, and again very raw sounding

James