I edited my noted from the original so perhaps you did not see my addendum.
"He is the gentleman who researched the time lines based on stamps, lathing and hammering, and created the naming conventions in general use today for vintage Zildjian cymbals".
I also have a vintage 1960 ride (it does have a stamp) that they decided to check out, and they believe that it is not an A because of the way it's hammered
Can you give us a clear picture of the stamp on that cymbal. You say they decided its not an A based on the hammering, but if it has an A Zildjian stamp I'm confused about how can they claim that. We re talking about impressed stamps in the metal, not ink stamps, by the way.
Here's the stamp :)
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/I5sCIaR.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/dg2o5pE.jpg[/IMG]
Here's the stamp :)[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/I5sCIaR.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/dg2o5pE.jpg[/IMG]
Let me get this straight. They told you this was NOT an A. ZILDJIAN? Did they think it was a counterfeit? It looks like a genuine '60s A to me. Like I said the sales people at Sam Ash are clueless when it comes to vintage cymbals.
On the more recent ride cymbal: The 1st pic you refer to as Guitar Center sourced looks like a perfectly respectable Avedis cymbal from the 1960s. But is that the same one as the blurry pic of your ride cymbal on a hat stand? The second hat stand ride could also be, but the pic is so poor in quality it is hard to tell. Certainly the two pics of the stamp both look like a perfectly respectable examples of what Bill Hartrick (Drumaholic) called the early 1960s stamp (or later 60s if it is 1.5" tall rather than 1 3/16"). But are those two stamp pics the same cymbal or two different ones? I'm confused by the way your text and use of pics has been done. But then I'm a bear of little brain.
On the possible Dream (or other Chinese sourced) hats: There are three distinct periods of Dream Bliss cymbals from when they started out. And now Dream have re-introduced some rides (only rides last I looked) which are intended to be like the earliest ones and these are called Vintage Bliss.
The reason I didn't think your hats were specifically Dream Bliss is that the lathing isn't the usual microlathing they have:
http://www.dreamcymbals.com/instruments/cymbals/bliss
If it resembles anything Dream it looks like the current Dream Contact lathing:
http://www.dreamcymbals.com/instruments/cymbals/contact
But Contact cymbals have also changed a lot in lathing pattern over time. My pair of hats is Bliss type I over a Bliss type II, and my contact is a Contact type I which has pin lathing on the top which is like what is seen on a K Zildjian Intermediate stamp. So your pair of hats aren't a match for the lathing on any of mine. What I was going on was more the way the hammering and the bell/bow transition look.
Unfortunately the web site which once had the different type definitions for the Dream Contacts and Bliss is gone, so the photos and descriptions are gone. I can remember some of the details and I've got examples so I should be documenting mine. Mine were bought new towards the end of 2006 so that is a time when the Type I Bliss were still in stock and the Type II Bliss (with the corrective over hammering) had appeared. So at least I can mark that point in time.
I have a 20" and 22" Dream Bliss. The lathing and hammering on my copies don't resemble the OP's pictures at all. As Bill indicated, they do look a lot like K's. My Dreams do not.
Do you know what type(s) they are? Any pics to share? That might narrow things down, as well as contribute to getting a the typology for these up and going again. And I should have mentioned before that mine no longer have any of the ink. If yours do that's another thing which has changed over the years.
18" Contact (Early) probably Type 1:
[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2014/contact-top.jpg[/img]
[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2014/contact-bottom.jpg[/img]
20" Contact (Type 1) with Crash Ride ink on bottom:
[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2014/contact20-top.jpg[/img]
[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2014/contact20-bot.jpg[/img]
14" Dream Bliss hat (Type 1) on the Left, 60s Avedis on Right
[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2014/bliss-a-bot.jpg[/img]
[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2014/bliss-a-top.jpg[/img]
Can you give us a clear picture of the stamp on that cymbal. You say they decided its not an A based on the hammering, but if it has an A Zildjian stamp I'm confused about how can they claim that. We re talking about impressed stamps in the metal, not ink stamps, by the way.
I have the vague impression the Drum Shop "experts" were saying it isn't 60s from the hammering rather than it isn't Avedis Zildjian. But I can't say for sure without clarification. I'm all muddled.
Do you know what type(s) they are? Any pics to share? That might narrow things down, as well as contribute to getting a the typology for these up and going again. And I should have mentioned before that mine no longer have any of the ink. If yours do that's another thing which has changed over the years.
I have no photos of the Dream Bliss's available but I can take some. Both have their ink stamps fully intact if I recall correctly. I haven't looked in a few months. We have a 20" and 22". They were purchased new together but they have completely different ink stamps I believe. (Too many cymbals and an aging brain!)
Both were purchased at the same time from Steve Weiss Music in Willow Grove, Pennsylvania, a terrific dealer that specializes in percussion instruments for orchestras, marching bands, Latin music and schools, rather than drum sets. Great place! We got Dan's Musser Vibes, orchestral bells, bell trees, chimes, temple blocks, wood blocks, triangles, and most of our other traps there. Besides his jazz and rock work my son is primarily a show drummer. (Pardon the shameless plug for both Steve Weiss and my son Dan!)
I have the vague impression the Drum Shop "experts" were saying it isn't 60s from the hammering rather than it isn't Avedis Zildjian. But I can't say for sure without clarification. I'm all muddled.
Agree, it's unclear but NormalMCGamer said [COLOR="Red"]"I also have a vintage 1960 ride (it does have a stamp) that they decided to check out, and they believe that it is not an A because of the way it's hammered"[/COLOR]. Most likely he left out the word "sixties" before the A. However, regardless, it still looks like a '60s A to me.
