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Vintage Cymbal ID and Value Last viewed: 7 hours ago

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All the years of collecting these dusty old drums and I am still awful at ID'ing Vintage Cymbals. Can anyone give me the approximate year and value of this Vintage A? It is a 22 inch weighing in at 3169 grams. Slight Keyhole. No cracks and sounds great! I am looking to sell it soon as I am unloading quite a but of stuff lately and want to know what I have here. Thanks in advance!

1954 Gretsch Name Band Outfit White Marine Pearl
1964 Ludwig Downbeat Kit Champagne Sparkle
1964 Ludwig Jazz Combo Kit Gold Sparkle
1964 Gretsch Jazz Progressive Jazz Progressive Kit
1965 Ludwig Club Date Kit BDP
1971 Slingerland 13,16,22 in Black Sparkle
1979 Rogers XP-8 Super Londoner Tobacco Sunburst
1982 Rogers XP-8 Black Londoner
Numerous Snare Drums
Posted on 8 years ago
#1
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You cut off the top portion of the stamp which contains important diagnostic information, but based on what is there plus the lathing style and lack of much visible hammering, I'd say 60s.

Given the weight, the expected price is around $180±$40.

Posted on 8 years ago
#2
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Thanks for the reply Zenstat! The stamp was so faint at the top I had not realized that I cut it off. Here is another pic of the full logo. Does this help nail it down?

1954 Gretsch Name Band Outfit White Marine Pearl
1964 Ludwig Downbeat Kit Champagne Sparkle
1964 Ludwig Jazz Combo Kit Gold Sparkle
1964 Gretsch Jazz Progressive Jazz Progressive Kit
1965 Ludwig Club Date Kit BDP
1971 Slingerland 13,16,22 in Black Sparkle
1979 Rogers XP-8 Super Londoner Tobacco Sunburst
1982 Rogers XP-8 Black Londoner
Numerous Snare Drums
Posted on 8 years ago
#3
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Definitely a Hartrick 60s stamp based on the additional photos. But we can't get it down to a specific year.

Posted on 8 years ago
#4
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Thanks again Zenstat! Care to take a crack at this one? It 's another 22 that came with a Big R Rogers kit and weighs in at a whopping 3400 grams. I always assumed it was a 1970's ride but now I am unsure. It is a smaller stamp that measures near 3/16. I was thinking 70's small stamp but it has the three dots

1954 Gretsch Name Band Outfit White Marine Pearl
1964 Ludwig Downbeat Kit Champagne Sparkle
1964 Ludwig Jazz Combo Kit Gold Sparkle
1964 Gretsch Jazz Progressive Jazz Progressive Kit
1965 Ludwig Club Date Kit BDP
1971 Slingerland 13,16,22 in Black Sparkle
1979 Rogers XP-8 Super Londoner Tobacco Sunburst
1982 Rogers XP-8 Black Londoner
Numerous Snare Drums
Posted on 8 years ago
#5
Guest
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That second cymbal is wearing a 60s short stamp (1 3/16"), and the quirk pattern is consistent with that. If the cymbal in your first post has a stamp which is taller (more like 1.5") then it is the 60s tall stamp. I wasn't able to be sure enough from just the quirk patterns that it was the 1.5" version. The quirks seem to work to distinguish the 1 3/16" from the 1.5" about 90% of the time (based on a sample of around 140 examined in detail) but there are some which are too hard to classify on quirks alone.

According to Bill Hartrick's original timeline the 1.5" stamp is later 60s. If this is correct there should be a strong correlation between the stamp (1 3/16" vs 1.5") and the hammering style which he also says changed in the early 60s. Bill never gave any details of the number of cymbals he examined and how accurately their year was established. I've been working to replicate his work but so far I'm not able to confirm his claim. Neither have I been able to refute it. The data is fuzzier than one would expect if the two different trademark stamps were used sequentially and with no overlap in time. It's possible that both were in use in the factory at the same time and that's why the data looks as it does.

In the case of your two cymbals the first one you posted does have the style of hammering and lathing on the top which is consistent with the 1.5" stamp, and the second one does have the style of hammering and lathing on the top which is consistent with the 1 3/16" stamp. But that can be entirely down to the lighting and quality of the photos, and the interpretation would be different in person. I've worked on getting objective methods for classifying hammering and lathing (and stamps obviously) from photos because that's what many people have to work with when they are considering a purchase and can't audition a cymbal in person. Top photos are good, but it's actually bottom photos which can prove more diagnostic of production methods during the 60s to mid 70s period. Bottom hammering became much reduced and eventually dropped out during this period, although when you start documenting sufficiently large samples (a few hundred cymbals) you start to see the occasional one which doesn't fit the simple "bottom hammering stopped in 1968" style of story. Note that I'm just using 1968 as an example. Exact years are not pinned down for these changes.

None of this affects the expected price. My pricing models don't distinguish between early and late 60s cymbals, and for most buyers neither do they.

Posted on 8 years ago
#6
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Thanks again Zenstat! The first 22 posted does have a larger stamp measurement then the second. It was hard for me to determine the exact size because of the faintness of the top part of the logo made it hard to get a proper starting point I actually had the measurement at a little more than 1.5. Bigger then the second logo for sure. I am going to keep one of these and sell the other. Leaning toward keeping the smaller logo ride because I like the sound a bit better to my ears. Great info on the links you created. I was checking out your Paiste 602 info and comparing it my 602 hats. Good stuff! Thanks again!

1954 Gretsch Name Band Outfit White Marine Pearl
1964 Ludwig Downbeat Kit Champagne Sparkle
1964 Ludwig Jazz Combo Kit Gold Sparkle
1964 Gretsch Jazz Progressive Jazz Progressive Kit
1965 Ludwig Club Date Kit BDP
1971 Slingerland 13,16,22 in Black Sparkle
1979 Rogers XP-8 Super Londoner Tobacco Sunburst
1982 Rogers XP-8 Black Londoner
Numerous Snare Drums
Posted on 8 years ago
#7
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