The problem with this group of brands/logos/trademarks, is that clearly, some of them are the names of other cymbal makers. Bellotti, Biasei and Zanchi , come to mind, although the spelling Zanchi does not occur here, as commonly found on it's own, except as Super Zanchi. It shows up as Zanki, the latter form used in the marketplace. There is also the bizarre, Zankhi F&F a spelling I have never even heard of outside of this document.

Given that UFiP was a collective and at one time included five family names( Zanchi and Biasei,being two of them) but not Bellotti, to my understanding; there would likely have been a lot of give and take in the industry around Pistoia, although one of the original founders was from Florence( who's grandson , eventually helped found , Tosco). If we zero in on Zanchi, they are known as cymbal makers, they are known as having invented rotocasting and for having introduced it to UFiP. It seems odd that UFiP would be claiming ownership of the name Zanki on cymbals unless , the shift from Zanchi to Zanki in the marketplace , coincided with a shift in manufacturing from Zanchi to UFiP.

Excellent detail Calfskin. I was posting the image and giving proper credit for it to Ronn Dunnett. Alas, because I haven't been able to find the original photo essay of Ronn's I wasn't able to quote Ronn directly on the "meaning" ascribed to it. So I should have been more careful to make the "it's Italian" vs "It's a UFiP" clearer. Here's my source about it being a UFIP stencil brand picture:

Some guy you may have heard of. ;)

I have very limited knowledge of the history of Italian cymbals (enough to know it's complicated and there are completely non UFiP makers). But from reading what you've written Calfskin, would it be correct to say:

"If a trademark appears on this image your cymbal has an Italian origin. If the trademark on your cymbal doesn't appear here your cymbal may still be Italian."

BTW Calfskin, on your cymbals with the "small circular made in italy stamp" is that an ink stamp or a die stamp pressed into the surface? Both appear on this site:

http://robscott.net/cymbals/italian-cymbals/

which is also a handy example of mixing up "Italian" and "UFiP" in the heading itself. Later postings on RobScott get into the differences, but it seems to start off in a way which might well confuse beginners.

* edit * At last! This was a bit of a mission for me because it loads really slowly, and because it is in Ronn's favorite r-e-a-l-l-y -- w-i-d-e sideways scrolling format. Full traceback to the original:

http://www.dunnett.com/messe2008/rome7.html

and scroll horizontally to the familiar image (without the red ink added - we've never figured out who did that on the one circulating on the web)

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2013/ufipbrands.jpg[/img]

And the original text:

"It seems odd that UFiP would be claiming ownership of the name Zanki on cymbals unless , the shift from Zanchi to Zanki in the marketplace , coincided with a shift in manufacturing from Zanchi to UFiP."

I don´t think it did - I have Zankis so old that I am pretty certain they were made at the Zanki premises. Zankis shop existed until 1992, as far as I understand.

However, I have heard rumours - not evidence - that Zanki at times delivered rotocastings to UFIP and Tosco. I would speculate that, taking their problems in living with the fluctuating demand for their cymbals into account - sometimes not enough sold, at other times problems fulfilling orders - that they simply helped each other out. Sometimes one way, sometimes the other way.

This even before the last 2 Zanki brothers joined UFIP and took their rotocasting equipment with them.

Guesswork.

But this could be an explanation to UFIPs claims of having made Zanki cymbals.

By the way, "Vibra" is stamped to some of my Zankis. These are not marked with Rotocasting.

Jon

Yeah, I am not sure that the Rosetta Stone was ever intended as a claim by UFIP of the various cymbals produced on their premises. It does appear that even after certain members "left" the collective, that there was still a friendly relationship and others at the time produced their cymbals inside the UFIP facility. It's such a sharp contrast to the split between the Zildjian family after the death of Avedis III.

In an attempt to verify the identity of a cymbal claimed by its owner as being UFIP made, but bearing no embossed stamp of any kind (and only a made In Italy ink stamp), I exchanged several emails with Alberto Biasei at UFIP. He remarked that during the years from 1940-1960, there were at least five different cymbal foundries in Italy. All of them used that Made In Italy stamp, which I question as having been provided to them as a customs stamp. He didn't deny that there were "no stamp" cymbals made there, but didn't affirm any issue with unmarked UFIP pies either.

Of note regarding the stencil brands, I had recently seen a cymbal bearing the Ciclone label that also bore a Zanchi F & F stamp across from it. Adding to that, the only other time I've seen the Ciclone logo, it had a Bellotti stamp in addition to it. It just makes the whole genealogy thing even stranger.

I need to start saving pics of these things when they pop up on Ebay and such.

There are 4 different made in Italy stamps, I have seen on cymbals and 3 on cymbals I currently own. Little round embossed stamps, like the ones on the rosetta stone,square, red ink stamps , square ,black ink stamps and round black ink stamps. I have cleaned some of these and have found the ink to be very fleeting and easily lost if not enough care is taken. One of the cymbals , under very close scrutiny revealed a very anemic Ajaha inkstamp under the bell with no other visible mark. I don't think it is inconceivable that some of the cymbals that are clearly Italian in origin , could be Ajahas, that have lost their inkstamp. Gretsch , doesn't seem to want anyone to know the origins of those cymbals, so I don't think they were ever stamped made in Italy but Gretsch probably sold a lot of them in North America( probably more than UFiP branded pies, for many years).

Very interesting info. jr( if I may call you that) about Zanki. All of my Zanchis are spelled , the old way. Some say Zanchi F&F, some are Zanchi Vibra , there is even a pair of Zanchi Revere Vibra and then there are just Zanchi. The form of them all, is not consistent. The arc of the bow changes from dramatically curved, to almost flat and the bell shape is decidedly rounded on some and kind of pointy on others.

Regarding the trademarks, Zenstat. There are two, on that pictorial, I quickly recognize as existing on cymbals that aren't made in Italy, as well and a couple missing, that were definitely made in Italy and one of those exists ,made elsewhere too. KIngston shows up as a Japanese cymbal mostly and Super is a brand normally associated with Paiste. Italian cymbals were marketed in Canada under the brand ProCussion and are the same product as ones labelled CB 700 but I think both of those cymbals were also in another incarnation from the orient as well? ProCussion may have been Sabian cheapos at one time too , similar to Solars. So, it isn't really cut and dried. So many of those trademarks are those of marketers and jobbers and they move around from supplier to supplier based on price and availability. A lot of brands could be deemed Italian , only by virtue of a stamp as such, or a fine toothed examination of the cymbals characteristics.