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Gretsch Round Badge Mystery

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I've had mixed Gretsch kit for about 17 years. I bought it when I was 15 and at the time wasn't all that interested in checking the bona fides of vintage drums. The 9x13 Tom and 14x20 BD are both Round Badge and the 16x16 FT is from the early Stop Sign badge era. Anyway, it's come time to sell them and I'm having trouble determining just what it is I have on my hands.

In particular, the 9x13 Tom is giving me fits. It appears to have alternating maple and gum plys (indicating late 50's or later), has a paper tag but no sealer! I've always been under the impression that the sealer and tags came at the same time they switched to the 6-ply shells. Anyone have any info that might help?

Here's some photos of the shell: [IMG]http://picasaweb.google.com/Boomka777/GretschDrums?authkey=r8egLMCtqcQ[/IMG]

Posted on 17 years ago
#1
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And I always thought the sealer came first, then the tags. So maybe it was built on the sealer guy's day off

Gary

Dix Hills, NY

http://s231.photobucket.com/albums/ee19/sabshga/

http://www.myspace.com/garysabshon

Posted on 17 years ago
#2
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Quoted post

And I always thought the sealer came first, then the tags. So maybe it was built on the sealer guy's day off

Baddup-CRASH!

Nice.

Posted on 17 years ago
#3
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All kidding aside, I do believe sealer began to be used before the move to 6 ply shells. Then 6 ply shells were sold with sealer and no tag for a period until the tags began to be used. Being that quality control can be at issue and at a point after it was customary to ship shells with sealer and tags, your piece simply didn't get the sealer. Custom order - maybe. Mistake - maybe. Orders to fill and out of sealer - maybe.

So that's my opinion. That stated, if anyone has more specific, historic knowledge on the subject, please step up because I have never seen a piece with an authentic tag and a bare interior shell.

Could you post a picture?

Gary

Dix Hills, NY

http://s231.photobucket.com/albums/ee19/sabshga/

http://www.myspace.com/garysabshon

Posted on 17 years ago
#4
Posted on 17 years ago
#5
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Did you take the muffler out for the inside shell picture? The exterior picture shows the muffler adjusters. The picture of the tag inside the unfinished interior show the holes for the muffler.

A couple of additional wierd things. The paper tag is quite crooked and quite high on the shell. It looks like the shell is composed of two shells as you can see a very definitive change in the grain.

It is strange enough to me that I would just walk away from it, but that's me.

Gary

Dix Hills, NY

http://s231.photobucket.com/albums/ee19/sabshga/

http://www.myspace.com/garysabshon

Posted on 17 years ago
#6
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Quoted post

Did you take the muffler out for the inside shell picture? The exterior picture shows the muffler adjusters. The picture of the tag inside the unfinished interior show the holes for the muffler.A couple of additional wierd things. The paper tag is quite crooked and quite high on the shell. It looks like the shell is composed of two shells as you can see a very definitive change in the grain.It is strange enough to me that I would just walk away from it, but that's me.

Yes, the mufflers were out for some spit-and-polish when I took the pictures.

There is absolutely nothing strange about the variations in the shell. You can see horizontal lines in many, many Gretsch shells. Often, you can see where the sealer took a slightly different hue due to variations in the shell underneath. For example, the Bass Drum: http://picasaweb.google.com/Boomka777/GretschDrums/photo#5096864698231755906. Even more often, you can see horizontal lines in the inner ply though potential variations in wood colour are hidden by the sealer. For example - in addition to the kit in question - here's some pictures of the inside of a 1979 Gretsch Floor Tom: http://picasaweb.google.com/Boomka777/Grestch1979. Note well the horizontal lines visible in the sealer and the variations in the grain (not to mention the crooked tag ;)). In the case of the 9x13 tom, without the sealer, it's simply more apparent. This is likely because Jasper shells were not made one at a time. They used to build long cylinders and several shells were cut from the same cylinder. The weren't concerned with making the seams coextensive with the depth of any single shell.

As for the tag in the 9x13, it's not that high. Look again: http://picasaweb.google.com/Boomka777/GretschDrums/photo#5096013611807347650. Putting your cursor in the centre of the tag, and using the diamond bracket and the screws as a guide, the center of the tag is, at most, 3/4 of an inch off of centre. The tilt of the tag makes it seem like it sits higher at first glance. If I came across that in someone else's drum, I wouldn't be concerned. The rest of the drum shows Gretsch bona fides, including the variations in the shell, the Jasper gum and maple plys, the shell hardware, and the part number on the tag. Not to mention the pedigree.

You don't know me from Adam so I can't expect you to trust me, BUT ;), Long & McQuade (http://www.long-mcquade.com/index.php?site=1&tmp=44), where the drum was purchased, is one of the largest, oldest and most reputable music dealers in Canada. The previous owner of the kit was a friend of the family and my father was actually present at the purchase at L&M in 1970. Unfortunately, being 40 years on, he doesn't remember the particulars. None of the principle players involved in the drums' history have any reason to lie about where and when the drums were purchased.

With that in mind, it is possible that someone had an undrilled Jasper shell and the hardware, the tag, and the badge from a real Round Badge Gretsch 9x13 and built a faux Gretsch drum. Then they matched it with an authentic Gretsch RB Bass Drum and a 1970 SS Floor Tom. Or the scoundrel just happened to have two more undrilled Jasper shells, plus all the Gretsch hardware, the correct paper tags, badges (incl. one issued that year), and a can of sealer and built an entire fake Gretsch drum kit. Of course, Murphy's Law was operative because our crook ran out of sealer before completing the fraudulent 9x13. DOH Furthermore, our phantom drumsmith then somehow convinced the premier drum retailer in Canada at the time to sell the mixed-badge fraud for them. Maybe he just said, "Hi, I'm the new Gretsch salesman in your area" and ol' Lou Williamson - who ran the shop for years - said, "Great, nice one, thanks for the kit..."

It's possible, but I'm applying Ockham's Razor to this and figuring that it was one of the following:

1. Special Ordered. Though it seems odd that one would order no sealer in the tom, but sealer in the bass drum. Probably not.

2. They were purchased together new and are an incredible display of poor Quality Control. Doubtful.

3. The RB drums were used at purchase and the floor tom was added on at that time. This would fit if the RB drums were actually from around '57-'58 when the sealer was being introduced. Apparently there was some inconsistency in the application of the sealer. At least one vintage Gretsch expert has given me this opinion after seeing the photos. They say that they come across it fairly frequently. Attempts to track down the previous owner have been unsuccessful, so we may never know for sure but, I'm tempted to go with this one. It's simple, explains all the relevant evidence and doesn't introduce any needless assumptions - like mysterious drumsmiths/frauds.

Posted on 17 years ago
#7
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I'm tapped. I'm sure your right.

Gary

Dix Hills, NY

http://s231.photobucket.com/albums/ee19/sabshga/

http://www.myspace.com/garysabshon

Posted on 17 years ago
#8
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