Hello Jay

This is an excellent question you have raised

and one that nags me with the same uncertainty as well

My answer is I have no idea yet myself

I would first of all rule out pearl completely

These Del Ray and Norma Kits done up like Gretsch do look like non Star Hoshino builds

But I have a factory original blue sparkle Norma badged drum kit with the original Norma resonant head and this kit is 100% Star all the way

so apparently like so many others, Norma drum kits started out as a Star stencil brand

and then non star Hoshino took over with he label when Star fell out to form Tama

The only fly in that ointment for me is the timeline

The Norma and Del Ray kits done like Gretsch appear to me at least

to be of a vintage that would have been built more in parallel with Star time-wise? and if that is the case then they could possibly be some special addition Star kits

As I mentioned many times before the first drum set I ever owned

were some second hand orange sparkle Norma badged drums

unfortunately, though I am crystal clear on the color and the badges

I am a little fuzzy with the detail of the lugs

I did not pay as close attention to those things back then

Half the fun of finding and fixing on these little kits

are all the weird curveballs that come up within the different builds

But oh heck yes those Gretsch lugs are a head scratcher for me too??

I have to wonder as well, and I think we've touched upon this is that since many of the stencil names were specific to a shop, that any company could have made them without any copyright infringement. Such as Tama can't name a line of drums " Export Series " without some lashing from Pearl. Where as we do know some of the companies did produce the same stencil names. Perhaps one company was cheaper, or maybe someone wanted this type of hardware as opposed to that?

With the Norma badge, are there different variations? That could help to as we've certainly seen badges that point to one of the three with relative certainty. As each typically had one of a couple ways they did things. I'm certainly not 100% on this theory, I'd say I'm 75% while still waiting for the final call based on all the evidence and variations.

But yea I'm determined to figure this one out. For the most part we can easily ID many of the lug variations to one of the three makers. But these just have me perplexed. Not as much as I was, but still head scratching.

Another wonder I have is if all three makers made Slingerland clone lugs. We know Star & Pearl did, so it wouldn't be that surprising. Also wonder if any company made parts for another as an extra income source. Such as maybe Pearl made all those Slingerland clones and sold them cheap to the other guys. There are so many variables and possibilities.

Uploaded a few photos I found. You'll notice the adjustable strainer,screw position for the tone control, lugs, and something else I just noticed that I think is also key to saying these are non Star Hoshino is the lack of a grommet. The badge is made to appear as though the drum has one, but as on my Rocket & Del Rey they in fact do not. The blue sparkle kit does look like a Star build. But the badge is the same as on the confirmed non star drums. Thus leading my thought that maybe everyone made those Slingerland clones, or someone made the hardware for someone else. Just a theory.

Some more photos I found from an Ebay auction. This is a dead ringer for my Rocket snare and my un badged BDP. I've never seen a Star or Pearl with this strainer system. Just on the Del Rey,Rocket & Norma.

Another thought I had is maybe when Star was becoming Tama they liquidated the majority of the stencil hardware knowing they were no longer going to use them. Possible Pearl & Hoshino ( or one or the other ) bought out the extra stock and used it on their kits.

Ken - I just came to a serious realization and need your help on this. The floor tom brackets on the blue sparkle Norma kit I posted above. I thought " thought " those were Star. Going through old Star catalogs I do not see them on any drum. Rather I see another bracket being used all the way into the '70s. Is this something else we may have missed or simply mis labeled? I'm posting a photo of the bracket Star was using. I'm going to try and find a close up of the other one as well. Also found this norma ad, I'm buying it. I need to get my hands on this and really examine it. But from what I see, the stands & pedals don't appear to be star or pearl.

Jay my guess is for some unexplained reason

once production by Star ended

unlike most others,

the original metal Norma badges were used

on the non-star Hoshino builds

I have yet to see any other form of Norma badge on anything

As to the floor tom brackets

If you are referring to the kit in the group of pics you posted yesterday at 9:22

I can not see the bracket all that clearly, but the whole kit looks to be a Star build to me

Those brackets sometimes stripped out and the closest looking replacements were older Ludwig

but I don't know if this is the case here

This feels like one of those mysteries where the more you uncover, the more secrets you find. One step forward, two steps back lol. When I receive that ad in the mail I'll make a good scan and post it. That way we can really get a good shot of the kits. And hopefully somewhere on there it'll say the maker. I'm gonna see if I can get my hands on as many of these older catalog pages to really help figure all this craziness out. Safe to say this has my brain in a constant loop.

Jay all three makers did have Slingerland cloned lugs early on

later non-Star Hoshino and Pearl used redesigned lugs while Star continued cloning Slingerland and to a lesser degree Sonor and Gretsch

with all this keep in mind

there is another point of view still shared by many

that there were only two makers Star and Pearl

kits that we both designate to be non star Hoshino were most often lumped in as Pearl builds

This is very true. I knew a few people who held the view that only two makers were out there. I love all this, as crazy and mind bending as it can all be. Because when we finally get to a point where things make more sense and have solid time lines,etc.. it's gonna be so worth all the time and effort many of us have put in to uncovering to mystery of the MIJ drums. I've been wondering too if a lot of these builds could have been customized. For instance if you see a catalog kit, with a certain name such as Drum Mate, then chances are any drum mate kit will resemble any catalog kit. Where as say a " Jason " kit ( or any of the other seemingly special ordered names ) could have had the choice of lug,strainer type, etc.. So that could also be some explanation as to some of these crazy differences, or bizarre and rarer style lug,strainer,etc..

My Gracy kit mij.