So my main question is... I'm aware of the B/O badge supers that were available. And i'm also aware that typically a cob snare is preserial. Is it possible that some of these brass shells made it into the mid 60s? I was looking at a mid 60s shell that had the fold in flange. Can't see a seam at the angle yet so i'm hoping to get more pics. Doesn't look like crimped beds either. So idk for sure. But I thought the two solid give aways was the seam and rolled flange..
jason
The crimped beds would probably have to be there if it's a COB? Another indication is the smaller 3/4" tone control knob
Yes it is possible some COB shells were used in mid 1960s snare builds. It's a statistical thing. Given a large enough sample, you might find one although they are rare. I've learned to never say never with Ludwig (or any other manufacturers). And never always leaves open the possibility. I present one further down (thanks to Terry Bonzoleum).
It's easy to tell a COB shell from an aluminum shell if you can get the weight. You don't even need to take of heads, rims, lugs, etc off to do so. There is a small amount of variation in weight due to, say, steel rims vs brass rims or the different production eras of Imperial Lugs. But this variation is swamped by the basic difference between the brass shell and the aluminum shell. People got hung up on the details of what variation might be there. They concluded the method might not work reliably enough. But nobody did the actual experiments to find out.
Here's what I collected up in my notes on this before declaring the case closed (closed as in weight works well enough):
Weights for a brass supra vs a Ludalloy one:
Trout:
6 lbs (2.7kg) for Ludalloy
9 lbs 2 oz (4.1kg) for Brass
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErWunFwJHF0"]Is my vintage Ludwig Supra-phonic snare drum alloy or brass? - YouTube[/ame]
Bonzoleum:
Ludalloy: 900g shell only
Super Ludwig 400: 1650g shell only
1968 brass: 1400g shell only
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajWv4NoQQac"]60's Ludwig Supraphonic COB or Ludaloy? How To Spot a COB 1958-1961 SUPER LUDWIG Snare Drum - YouTube[/ame]
VDF:
5-6 lbs for Ludalloy
8-9 lbs for Brass
Mine (5x14 depth)
3.57 Kg 60s Ludalloy (7.87 lbs) "lighter" brass rims
4.1 Kg 2003 Black Beauty (9 lbs)
Mike Layton 1959 Super 400:
8.67 pounds
plus shell is 1341 grams as opposed to the other at 1264 grams (same transition badge)
yet another thread with weights (with o-lugs helping out by providing the classic example of the misunderstanding about magnets and ferrous materials)
http://www.vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=8318
and note that since Ludwig-dude made his claims about no brass shells in the late 60s, I believe that a few have surfaced...as I'd expect. Here's one:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XFP27_sT8I"]RARE Ludwig 1968 COB SUPRAPHONIC Snare Drum Vintage - YouTube[/ame]
For me the only persistent problem is people not being clear about whether they weigh their drum full dress, or take of some components. If some components are taken off we need a list of what's on and what's off to be sure about what the weight means.
The crimped beds would probably have to be there if it's a COB? Another indication is the smaller 3/4" tone control knob
There is at least one non COB snare with crimped snare beds. I'm not sure I've kept a reference to who reported it.
The 3/4" tone control is an indicator of which tone control was used during the assembly, and that has a known date range correlation, but again it isn't fully diagnostic of a brass shell. Pretty good but there are counterexamples.
That's why it's all statistical. The more independent lines of evidence you assemble the better you can do with details of which era of lugs, type of tone control, crimped snare beds, keystone badge without serial, etc, the higher the level of certainty. It's just that the weight of aluminum versus brass gets to the basic science level bypassing all the uncertainty of which components and techniques were used in the creation of the drum. Add weight to the other lines of evidence and your certainty goes up.
Yes, there were Ludaloy shells on Supras and even on some Acrolites had crimped beds and were not brass. These usually have red felt baseball bat mufflers.
The earlier Imperial lugs also come into play. They were heavier than the ones used later in the 60's.
And to confuse matters even more, there are few known late 60's brass Keystone badge Supras that are seamless and do not have the rolled edges. These appear to be in very small numbers though.
Mike
