Wayne,

I think it depends on the sound you are looking for and the type of drums. The hoops are one part of the system as are the bearing edges, the shell material, shell thickness, etc.

Personally, I'm a big fan of die cast hoops. But my dream drum sound is that Great Gretsch Sound!

Everyone's got a different opinion.

My theory is that, since vintage drums' bearing edges were not always that evenly cut, the triple-flange rims are better suited because they are better able to conform to the edge's profile.

Die-cast rims are stiffer and don't conform as readily to the edge profiles often found on older drums. I also believe that, because of this fact, many older jazz players who played Gretsch kits, tended to have to tension their drumheads higher before they started to produce a nice tone. That's my personal opinion, anyway...based upon the fact that the drum sound on most all the older jazz recordings tend to be in that high/tight range -even when really small size drums were being used.

I noticed the same thing about an old Gretsch kit i almost bought.I didn,t because of that alone.By the time the heads tightened enough to play i was already in the higher tuning range,too high for me......A lot of vintage drums had that round edge that cast hoops did not agree with.Todays sharper edges are a different story.

I think you are right on.

their drums were tuned higher because of the the style of music they were playing. trad jazz/bebop/post bop whatever. the acoustic jazz ensemble with little or no amplification lacked the earth rumbling bass that our ears have all become accustomed to. the drums were tuned to a frequency range to avoid conflict with the bass and the lower register of the piano.

an acoustic bass player would be offended even today if you roll up to an acoustic gig with rock setup unless he/or she is equipped with the amplification to match, which would'nt make it acoustic any more.

if i play my bebop kit tuned as it was designed (high), i feel much more exposed where every note i play is out there, its harder, there are no secrets. then you really begin to feel the admiration for those great players of the past as to how good they really were.

bottom line... they were thinking about the music, not the gear. the drums i believe were designed for a higher tone cause it was simply suited to the music they were playing. the science behind the cast hoops you mention my be true but they didn't care.

and one more thing, i believe if you could give one of the old great players in the 40's, 50's or 60's a brand new dw with all the modern technology, he would set it up and tune it to make it sound just like the old classic kits of his era....regardless of hoops, shells or bearing edges.

Actually, I believe that the musicians have always thought about their gear -always. And, because of this, the smaller sized "bebop" kits evolved from the previously MUCH larger "big band" drums in the same way that big bands evolved into small combos. After the main gigs ended and the musicians were still "up" for more playing and...um..."fun", jam sessions and "underground" scenes developed that facillitated this. They were smaller, more intimate environments. The small kits were an answer to a need that the scene of that time required. One drummer gets the idea for a smaller, more easily transportable kit and then all the other guys see it and say, "Oh, okay...I want one of those kits, too." Next thing you know, just like smoking cigarettes, they became stylish and everyone was following suit -whether they ran from venue-to-venue on old 52nd Street or not. Even people who never played outside of their house, got the newer, smaller-sized kits. That's what the music shops used to sell. It was common and I mean common for a 12/14/20 kit to be on the floor of music shops throughout the 60's and into the 70's -at which point, the common bass drum size changed to 12/13/16/22.

The leap in bass drum size was much more drastic between the eras of the huge big band bass drums down to the ultra-small "bop" kits. Even to this day, we have more or less leveled off somewhere within a similar range of diameters -usually between 24's and 20's -with a few extremes thrown in like a 28" bass drum or even a 14" bass drum on a cradle!

I agree with your last statement. I also believe that those older drummers used to tune their drums high -especially those with die-cast rims to a point where the drums started to make a musical sound....but, as stated, I believe this tuning came to be, in part, because the edges weren't always meticulously-cut as we drum geeks ;) have come to expect by today's standards of drum building.

Also, in the late 50's-early 60's, synthetic drumheads were thinner -most "cats" preferring the 7.5 mil. or Diplomat weights. The thinner heads also helped the heads to conform to the shape of the bearing edges better -but, they took a little more cranking before they start to sound musical..and they were certainly "brighter" sounding than the calfskin heads that preceded them. When drummers realized that drums could make more of a note as oppsed to a thump, they became enamoured with it, I think.

By the time bebop hit the popular-music scene (which it never really did in the way that rock music or other pop music as we know it, today), the sound, in and of itself, was established to be in the high-tuning range. So, in order to re-create that sound today, drummers still employ small kits and high tunings. It's the drum sound that many people feel is the most-complimentary to the sounds of the acoustic bass and other acoustic instruments associated with that sound, when played in a small, intimate space.

It was a happy accident! Happy accidents are often at the heart of musical evolution. I believe this to be the case with small drums and small combo acoustic jazz. It was just one of those things....just one of those crazy things... ;)

So I pose this question - What would be the difference in sound between a cast hoop and a triple flange hoop, if it were put on the same drum? The drum being say, a vintage tom.

The die-cast rims will tend to "dry out" the sound in comparison to a triple-flange rim. And most vintage triple flange rims are the lighter (1.6mm) thickness compared to today's heavier 2.3mm rims.

Some die-cast rims are die-cast aluminum and some are die-cast (something-or-other metal) and some are die-cast from strange alloys (like Bison Drums' "GNU" rims), so I'm sure they all offer a slightly distinct version of the basic idea behind the die-cast design.

Several years ago, when Fibes started to offer a line of wood drums, they utilized the Jasper Company's shells -the same ones that Gretsch used for many years. The two major differences between the Fibes and their Gretsch contemporaries were that: 1.) the Fibes drums utilized triple-flange rims and: 2.) Fibes were considerably less-expensive than the Gretsch. Some people saw the utilization of triple-flange rims and Jasper shells to be the best of everything all rolled into one package and offered at a much more comfortable price. Then, the Jasper Company went out of business and both the Gretsch and the Fibes companies were forced to find new sources for their shells.

But, as always, this type of thing is subjective -always based upon personal preference and personal experience. I grew up with the Ludwig sound/feel in my formative years, so that's where my ear gravitates now. I really never cared for that great Gretsch sound by comparison. Plus, I always thought the die-cast rims made the drums feel different. Rimshots were enhanced, however...but I was never a big rimshot guy, I guess. Burger Kin