Just updated the bottom pics to include the Avedis stamp.

Top pics coming in a couple minutes.

Here are pics of the Top hat.

Lastly, here are both. The top hat does not sit completely flush on a flat surface. It has a bit of ripple/warp.

Top is top in both these pics.

Good pics. Thanks. Now we're getting somewhere on identification, even if not on solving the sound issue.

The bottom hat die stamp has the attributes of what we call a 70s stamp. So the bottom is 70s.

The top hat die stamp has the attributes of what we call a 60s stamp. So the top is 60s.

Some people get on quite happily with a pairing of a 60s and 70s New Beat, and some are bound to have come from the factory that way during the transition period. But I wouldn't think yours came from the factory with such a large difference in diameter. I can see a the bottom hat at 13 & 7/8" being paired up with a true 14" one at the factory. And I can see the top hat at 14 & 3/16" being paired up with a true 14" one at the factory. But not the two together. The guy who paired them up would have listened and played them and chosen two which went well together. That's the whole point of having cymbal testers like Leon Ciappini

https://www.namm.org/library/oral-history/leon-chiappini

but once a pair leave the factory they can get separated and recombined in the decades to follow.

The other thing which makes me think they didn't start out as a pair is that the pattern of finer lathing on the bell of the top hat is more like late 50s to very early 60s -- which would see them further separated in time. If the top is warped that could well be the source of the sound issues, and if it is significantly larger than 14" (3/16" seems significantly larger) then maybe it was a 15" which met with an accident which left it warped, and was cut down past an edge crack or other flaw.

The person who sold it to you may not have realized any of this, of course.

Where to now? You could try and find another top. If the top sounds ok by itself, you could sell it off as a crash cymbal and use the money to fund the purchase of a replacement top.

Or you could try and have the top cymbal cut to the right size and reworked slightly to cure the warp and improve the chick sound. You might end up spending about as much either way. I can put you in touch with a couple of people who do that kind of reworking if you are interested. These are cymbal makers who aren't cowboys. Yes, as with many things these days, there are cowboy repairers out there. *sigh*

Sorry, just trying to help the guy out. Hidehitters isn't the Gospel, but serves as a rough guide for entry level collector. I'm sure the guy doesn't need a History lesson on the Zildjian Company. We'll be here all day. He said he's an engineer who just wants to know if he was sold a lemon or is it common for New Beats to be odd sizes. The short answer is NO! They should be the same size - 14". No offense, Zenstats. I appreciate your knowledge on old Zils and UFiPs. You've never steered me wrong in the past.

The good news is they're definitely not B8. They should sound good, they're pro level, B20 cymbals.

Sorry if I came over a bit strong, but I have a concern about suggesting Hidehitters for any beginner. Because it lacks the detailed diagnostic info it really does cause beginners to mis-identify their stamps time and time again. They don't know what details to check. It is such a "rough guide" that it misleads people. I cringe every time I see one of Hidehitter's bogus headings appear in an eBay auction because somebody did a copy/paste of something from there. Gems like "The three dots in the Arabic script are missing in this stamp." have no place unless you give an illustration of which three dots you might be talking about!

But thank you for sending me back there because I stumbled over his pic of a 70s stamp without the country of origin:

[img]http://black.net.nz/avedis/images/no-origin.jpg[/img]

and I've been wanting to check on one of those. It turns out that the no country of origin stamp has the MADE IN CANADA alignments and not the MADE IN U.S.A. alignments of the rest of the English text. And the no country of origin stamp can also be mixed up with the Trans Stamps because if you look closely (I'll annotate this later) the TURKISH CYMBALS is pushed up very close to the ZILDJIAN Co just like in the Trans Stamps and pre Trans Stamps. I'll add that to my site soon. It's on my to do list now.

Guys, I thank you for all the help. These are going back to the store I ordered them from, as they're just too odd to work well together.

Tremendous info here. Again, much appreciated!

It's not too uncommon to find these kind of "orphan" sets. Back in the 60's, guys would trade one cymbal for another to get the sound they wanted. Cymbals stamped "top" might sound better on the bottom, and so it went.

I carry 4 - 14" cymbals that I mix and match for the gig. I have an 825, 850 1000, and 1300. The brightest sound comes from the 1000 over the 1300, (which was originally stamped "top"). A little more mellow is the 1000 over the 850. Next step down is the 850 over the 1000, and for acoustic I'll play with the 850 over the 825 or visa versa.

Only the 850 and 825 match in diameter, but I really don't worry about it because it's the sound that counts. So if you have a pair that sound good, just go with it!