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60s Supraphonic Shootout!

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Greetings y'all. There is so much knowledge on this forum, and I'd like a little input. I've been looking for videos that directly portray the sonic differences between a Ludalloy Supraphonic from the early/mid 60s to a COB 'Super Ludwig' from the very early 60's. There are a ton of videos that compare the Supra to the Black Beauty as well as to other brands of snares, but I can't find anything that just has a side-by-side comparison between just these two iconic snares, let alone two that are from the same era.

So, I'm going to make the video myself. Drums will be a COB Super-Ludwig circa 1961-62 with COB hoops & P-83 in mint condition, and a Ludalloy Supraphonic from 1966 with COS hoops and P-83, with the usual pitting/acne. Both are 5x14 and both sound fantastic. Identical batter (Aquarian Modern Vintage Medium) & snare side (Remo Ambassador Snare) heads, as well as snares themselves (PureSound 20-strand). The differences in the sonic qualities of the shell/hoop materials are quite noticeable, and my goal is to make those differences available for all to hear.

SO....here's where I'd like y'alls input. I like the low/medium/high tuning vids out there for the various snares, and am willing to provide those tunings for this shootout. Tunings for each setting will be identical for the batter head, and snare tension will be matched as well. I will set the snare side head tension the same for both and leave that head tension the same throughout.

I guess my questions are more on the technical side. What would you want to hear? For now, I'm planning on doing crushed rolls at various volumes, soft strokes, loud strokes, rimshots and cross-sticking. Maybe brushes, too. I think I'll even show the differences in sounds you can get from stick selection, too, and maybe apply that to ride cymbals as well (it makes a BIG difference!). I'll probably incorporate a little drumset work into this side-by-side as well, just to add that 'real world, rubber-hits-the-road' element. Please let me know if there's anything else y'all would want to hear.

Also...any suggestions as to microphone placement? I plan on using a pretty nice AKG large-diaphram mic, placed centrally between the two drums. Any video software you'd recommend? Interface/preamp is a FocusRite Scarlett Solo. I have never done anything like this this, and am a complete novice when it comes to making YouTube videos, so any suggestions will be helpful!

Thanks in advance. Drum on!

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Posted on 5 years ago
#1
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Nice idea. I'd like to pitch for the idea that you should not reveal which drum is which (at first) and get people to vote. Every once in a while somebody does a test like this where listeners are not told which is which (blind test) and the results are often surprising for drums and cymbals which "everybody knows" sound very different.

Here's an old (2007) example comparing K Zildjian Istanbul and A Zildjian. Setting the scene, then cymbals revealed, then my analysis.

OK, I’ve got four different recorded cymbals here, compiled into one file.All four weigh in within the same 100g range.No tape or any other funny business.Definitely not trying to be tricky here.All might be A’s, all might be K’s, or there might be a mix.Tell me what you think each one is, and why.

The revealing of the cymbals:

1. - 20 K. Zildjian (new stamp) 2121 grams

2. - 20 K. Zildjian (new stamp) 2095 grams

3. - 20 A. Zildjian (50s small stamp) 2024 grams

4. - 20 K. Zildjian (new stamp) 2130 grams

My analysis:

Here is a nice way to visualize the data, by looking at the "footprint" of each cymbal according to the responses. For a K it should really be at the far right, for an A it should really be at the far left. What we actually see is:

cymbal 1: K got 5 A votes, 16 K votes:

________________AAAAA|KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK_____K

cymbal 2: K got 8 A votes, 12 K votes (1 abstain)

_____________AAAAAAAA|KKKKKKKKKKKK_________K

cymbal 3: A got 10 A votes, 11 K votes

A__________AAAAAAAAAA|KKKKKKKKKKK__________

cymbal 4: K got 13 A votes, 8 K votes

________AAAAAAAAAAAAA|KKKKKKKK_____________K

cymbal 1 is perceived as the most K-like.

cymbal 2 is slightly K-like

cymbal 3 is not the most A of all 4 even though it is an A!

cymbal 3 is pretty evenly spread in its "footprint" between A and K territory

cymbal 4 is the most A-like even though it is a K!

So there is indeed substantial confusion between these examples of A and K cymbals. There were 46 correct votes cast out of 83 votes: 55% right.

Posted on 5 years ago
#2
Posts: 5550 Threads: 576
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The difference are many from brush action , to rim shots no comparison ..

April 2nd 1969 scarfed pink champagne holly wood and 65/66 downbeat snare, and , supra same year very minty kit old pies
66/67 downbeat with canister
Super 400 small round knob
1967 super classic obp





once the brass ceases to glitter, and the drum looses its luster, and the stage remains dark, all you have left is the timbre of family.
Posted on 5 years ago
#3
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I don't care how you make the video, like the Nike add says, "Just do it!"

Posted on 5 years ago
#4
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I would just like to suggest that you maintain consistent playing in the same manner you are controlling the other variables for both snares.

Pick a selection from Wilcoxon, Reed or even Stone, use a metronome & headphones and play through. I would consider the same idea for a play-through of beats/fills, either write it out and repeat it or a play-along on headphones.

One thing it will let you do once the recording is complete is to use your music software to produce a clip that can switch seamlessly between instruments at a known interval. This can reduce the impact of something novel being played that can distract the ear/mind that is trying to compare. I think that is more important than the mic type/placement, as long as they are consistent for each instrument.

Looking forward to the results when completed!

Posted on 5 years ago
#5
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There was a similar thread on the sax on the web forum yesterday.

A guy was demonstrating the difference between his Selmer Mark VI and his Conn 10M.

Mostly the Selmer guys liked the Mark VI and the Conn guys preferred the 10M.

I haven't watched the video yet, but I will be jealous either way with my Chinese horns.

Looking forward to seeing the two supras compared also. I have a couple Supras, but not a brass one.


1971 Ludwig Rock Duo set in Blue Oyster Pearl
early Mapex dual bass drum Saturn kit
1964 Leedy Ray  Mosca kit in Blue Sparkle
1959 Slingerland Super Gene Krupa snare in WMP
1968 Slingerland Hollywood Ace Snare Drum
1969 and 1977 Ludwig 400 Supraphonic snares
1965 Acrolite snare
Ludwig Coliseum snare
'68 Rogers Dynasonic snare
Pearl free floating piccolo snare
13" Mapex piccolo snare
6.5" deep Mapex steel snare
Mapex 6.5" Brass snare
I know there's more snares than that.
UFIP cymbals / Avedis Zildjians
Ghost pedals or Tama King Beats
you kids get off my lawn

 

Posted on 5 years ago
#6
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What ever happened to this supra shootout? Let's get cracking man!

Posted on 5 years ago
#7
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Sorry it's taking a while. I'm trying to figure out how to shoot the video with my phone, but use the audio from my good microphone.

I'll post a follow-up when it's ready.

Posted on 5 years ago
#8
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