I was hoping that in a year, someone might have a guess for what the signature might be on this cymbal or if there's any possible ID at all? It came with a Leedy 22 x 10 bass drum that I picked up at an auction. https://vintagedrumforum.com/showthread.php?t=67228

I'm trying to date these two and I haven't opened up the drum yet to look.

Cymbal holder says Patent 1924784 Ludwig. Designed to clamp on the hoop.

[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/FFCqZcYc/cymbal-holder-ludwig.jpg[/IMG]

No engraving/stamping on the top side?

I should have thought of that to start with, good question. Not that I can see. It's pretty heavy and unlike other cheap cymbals I've seen over the years, looks like good quality materials. The cup is large for such a small cymbal. More turning on the outer edge than the center.

[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/WbTGdpmy/cymbal-small-top.jpg[/IMG]

Link to large image: https://postimg.cc/HjvcKgh0

[IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/rySGyR4W/cymbal_small_writing.jpg[/IMG]

Right click and open in new tab for full size image, very large.

it's usually "an Italian" brand/make with a signature and without a visible metal stamp.

part of the ufip/Zanki/ etc combine

Looks like my Atlas (Ufip) 7" cup Chime material.

It's Italian I'd bet

Look Pages 19 and 20 here - the 81 Gretsch catalog- for the variety Of later Ufip examples

(Page 18 are Canadian K's)

http://www.drumarchive.com/Gretsch/Gretsch_81.pdf

Thanks for the advice and looking Id say it's pretty much the size and shape of the smallest of the IFIP 4776 Clang, the bell is like that. Plus looking at their site, they seem to hammer out the cymbal and do more turning on the outside than the cup. That also matches.

I'll call that the answer unless some day I mysteriously find a better ID. I think what you wrote is correct.

The sharply descending zig zags of that signature are very similar to what is seen on the XE Ajaha's and Ajaha's of the 40's to early 50's. Might even be a "Constantinople" as part of that writing. Probably an early XE Ajaha...which was Italian-made....which often tried to copy the look and signatures of the old K Cons and K Istanbuls.

Thank you for the adiditional.

And about that trap holder?

1933. L. B. GREENLEAF 1,924,784

MUSICAL TRAP HOLDER Filed Feb. 20, 1932 dam/awn Patented Aug. 29, 1933 UNITED STATES MUSICAL TRAP HOLDER Leland B. Greenleaf, Elkhart, Ind., assignor to C. G. Conn, Ltd., Elkhart, Ind., a corporation of Indiana Application February 20, 1932. Serial No. 594,369

Marked with Ludwig Patent 1924784

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/38/53/fa/0ba2a3b0d740e3/US1924784.pdf

The clamp, reminds me very much of the Ludwig, that's a bell/block holder on my drums from the 60s.

I would concur, it's probably an Italian cymbal. Back in the old days of jazz and popular music, you had A. and K. Zildjian, the Italian cymbal makers-there were five of them at one point-and you had China cymbals imported from China, of course. Eventually, the Japanese started making cymbals of low quality perhaps in the 60s. I have a 20" Japanese ride that came with an MIJ set I bought last summer that is really dark and trashy, as you might expect. I have no idea what I'm going to use it for.

I have a set of 14" old pre-Sabian Tosco hi-hats that I bought at a yard sale for $50. They sound just fine, although I use them only at home. Bob Zildjian bought Tosco at one point in the 80's. He made their B8 cymbals there originally, then closed the Italian factory, and eventually made a line of Tosco cymbals in the Canadian factory that didn't sell too well. They were Sabian cymbals with the Tosco name on them.

My first drumset, a Leedy Jet outfit, came with Italian cymbals, most likely the Slingerland house brand. They probably didn't sound bad at all, but I don't remember, because those drums went back to the store for a refund the next day (it's a long story). When I got a Slingerland set about six months later, I got Zildjians.

The Italian cymbal names you'll see are, Tronci, UFIP, Zanchi (later spelled Zanki), Vibra, Zenjian, Pasha, Kashian, Tosco and later, Spizzichino. Roberto Spizzichino was an artisan who made cymbals primarily for jazz drummers, using both Chinese and Turkish cymbal blanks. He bought them roughly cast and hand hammered and lathed them. Roberto died at age 67 in 2011, and his cymbals are now extremely collectible, expensive and highly prized.

It's not uncommon to see Spizzichino's cymbals going for thousands when they do come up for sale. People ask up to $1600 for hi-hats, and over $4000-$5000 for rides. Asking is not always getting, but the cymbals go for a LOT of money. They were very high quality and there's a limited supply.

Only one cymbal ever made has a bell like that.

VICTOR J. LAPAGE