Is this an early 60's Ludwig Acrolite?

[Delorso]

I know the pictures aren't great, but they're all I have to go on at the moment. I don't see a serial # on the badge, and the seller says there isn't one, which I believe suggests 1961-63. The throwoff indicates later era but I guess that could have been replaced sometime over the years?
And the tone control is a knob, not a baseball bat, but again, that doesn't necessarily mean anything definitive, right?
Anything else I'm missing?

[rastus]

Yea it looks like my 1965, with the exception of the throw-off and muffler. It looks pretty clean. I like the raw aluminum over the coated shells. There is a picture of mine in my snare drum album.

[thin shell]

It's a later 60's model. Probably '69 or so. Probably right before they switched to the Blue/Olive badge. Those drums had their vent hole punched a little higher to account for the new badge. Still has the 60s shiny finish though. They used the keystone badge on some of these shells so they end up sitting too high. Acro's started in '63 with the crinkle finished aluminum, folded edged, rolled and welded shell and aluminum hoops. Often referred to as the Prototype or First Gen Acrolite. They also started out with the Baseball Bat muffler. They switched to the small knob muffler in '68. The 12 hole P-85 was the first version of the P-85 and was introduced in '69 so it could be original to the drum.

[mlayton]

Agree with thin shell. Should be a '69 with that badge placement. I've got one with a serial number and one without. And they too have 12 hole blackface P85 strainers. Ludwig punched these shells for blue olive badges but they got Keystone instead. Flip side of the coin are the shells that were expecting Keystone badges and got blue olive. On these the badges had to be trimmed....aka cut badge models. Neat snare!

Mike

[Drumtimejohn]

I also concur. Only exception is I believe a drum cannot be a prototype and first generation at the same time. Law of superposition doesn’t support it. If the seamed aluminum hoop orange peel is the prototype then this preserial, seamless, crimped bed, COB hoop, red muffler, bowtie lug Acro I pictured would likely be next in line, aka first generation. If the orange peel was the first generation then my drum, likely more rare, would be the prototype for the seamless Acrolite as we know it. It’s also possible that both are prototypes. Of course I’m invested because I own the drum and hope maybe language will shift to acknowledge this drum.

As far as the OP’s drum, it looks like a nice Acro example however it’s not the same drum shown here so clearly the seller doesn’t have the correct info for you. Although the badge is higher in ‘68-69 that batter head shouldn’t touch cover the top of badge. This can happen with Remo heads because of the deeper collar when compared to Ludwig Weather Master. With that, there could be batter head rash that may become exposed if you go back to what Ludwig intended, a shallow collar. I gather the is likely bowed and would no longer lie flat without some adjusting.

[Delorso]

Thanks guys! I noticed the badge seemed oddly high up on the drum as well, but figured it was maybe the way the photo was taken. And very interesting about the cut badges and missing serial #s. I wasn't aware of that part of Acro history. This forum is great.

I'm probably going to pass on it, but if any of you are near SoCal, the seller is asking $225, and I think would take less.

[thin shell]

Originally Posted by Drumtimejohn

I also concur. Only exception is I believe a drum cannot be a prototype and first generation at the same time. Law of superposition doesn’t support it. If the seamed aluminum hoop orange peel is the prototype then this preserial, seamless, crimped bed, COB hoop, red muffler, bowtie lug Acro I pictured would likely be next in line, aka first generation. If the orange peel was the first generation then my drum, likely more rare, would be the prototype for the seamless Acrolite as we know it. It’s also possible that both are prototypes. Of course I’m invested because I own the drum and hope maybe language will shift to acknowledge this drum.

As far as the OP’s drum, it looks like a nice Acro example however it’s not the same drum shown here so clearly the seller doesn’t have the correct info for you. Although the badge is higher in ‘68-69 that batter head shouldn’t touch cover the top of badge. This can happen with Remo heads because of the deeper collar when compared to Ludwig Weather Master. With that, there could be batter head rash that may become exposed if you go back to what Ludwig intended, a shallow collar. I gather the is likely bowed and would no longer lie flat without some adjusting.

There were two types of Acro's with the welded orange peel shell. The earlier had small knob muffler and Imperials. I think most have standard triple flange hoops. Mlayton has or had one of these.

The next one has the baseball bat muffler and bowties. There are supposedly bowties that are aluminum. Others have the same die cast lugs as on production acros but with a brushed finish. I have never seen an aluminum bowtie so I can't comment on that but my welded shell acro
has the brushed die cast lugs. I also have a '66 or so acro so I took a lug off each and they are 100% identical other than the brushed finish which is a brushed finish applied to a chrome lug. All of the makers marks and other details are the same.
In '62 Ludwig put out a flyer for the new Acrolite. The copy says that the hoops are the same acrolite material. In other words aluminum.



In the '62 catalog they have another description for it. The picture is clearly an orange peel shell and still says aluminum hoops.




The '63 catalog still identifies the drum as having aluminum hoops.



The 63/64 catalog is the first mention of a seamless acrolite shell. No longer comes with aluminum hoops.


My thoughts, and Mlayton's, at least at one time, is that the prototypes were the imperial lug versions. These are much harder to find and fits the 100 or so made story.

The first gen are the bowtie versions with aluminum hoops and baseball bat muffler. These are rare but not that rare.

The second gen are the first models with the seamless shells. The earliest one had crimped beds just like the early aluminum supras had. This was very short lived and they soon went to the non crimped beds that we all know.

So my opinion is that your drum is a transitional drum because of the beds and that it is still quite rare but not a prototype.

[Drumtimejohn]

Originally Posted by thin shell

There were two types of Acro's with the welded orange peel shell. The earlier had small knob muffler and Imperials. I think most have standard triple flange hoops. Mlayton has or had one of these.

The next one has the baseball bat muffler and bowties. There are supposedly bowties that are aluminum. Others have the same die cast lugs as on production acros but with a brushed finish. I have never seen an aluminum bowtie so I can't comment on that but my welded shell acro
has the brushed die cast lugs. I also have a '66 or so acro so I took a lug off each and they are 100% identical other than the brushed finish which is a brushed finish applied to a chrome lug. All of the makers marks and other details are the same.
In '62 Ludwig put out a flyer for the new Acrolite. The copy says that the hoops are the same acrolite material. In other words aluminum.



In the '62 catalog they have another description for it. The picture is clearly an orange peel shell and still says aluminum hoops.




The '63 catalog still identifies the drum as having aluminum hoops.



The 63/64 catalog is the first mention of a seamless acrolite shell. No longer comes with aluminum hoops.


My thoughts, and Mlayton's, at least at one time, is that the prototypes were the imperial lug versions. These are much harder to find and fits the 100 or so made story.

The first gen are the bowtie versions with aluminum hoops and baseball bat muffler. These are rare but not that rare.

The second gen are the first models with the seamless shells. The earliest one had crimped beds just like the early aluminum supras had. This was very short lived and they soon went to the non crimped beds that we all know.

So my opinion is that your drum is a transitional drum because of the beds and that it is still quite rare but not a prototype.

Excellent! Thank you. So I’m hearing the theory that the imperial lug version, like a genuine prototype, might have gone out to test market and are uncommon thus rare. In theory Ludwig generates positive feedback and responds with a production all aluminum model (first gen). It makes perfect sense to separate those Acros. I heard “transition” as a potentially label for my drum and it makes more sense now. I gather most preserial badges are ‘63 or earlier. Since Ludwig was first experimenting with aluminum via Acro might this drum predate the Supraphonic 400? Any sense of numbers for transition Acros made? I’d love to see a picture of a brushed bowtie if you have one. Thanks again!

[mlayton]

Good points on the earlier models. My opinion is that the orange peel shell, Imperial lug, round knob muffler was the first. Then I think the next version is also the orange peel shell with bowties and bat muffler. Then the drum that DTJ mentioned is next in line. No orange peel shell but with crimped beds, pre serial badge and cob hoops. I think the the second drum that I mentioned is what I consider the first generation since it is cataloged and was certainly made in production. I am fortunate to own all three of the versions and a couple different versions of the second one (different muffler/strainer locations). I think that I have seen 3 of the Imperial models and 3 or 4 of the crimped bed models. Neat stuff!

[Drumtimejohn]

Originally Posted by mlayton

Good points on the earlier models. My opinion is that the orange peel shell, Imperial lug, round knob muffler was the first. Then I think the next version is also the orange peel shell with bowties and bat muffler. Then the drum that DTJ mentioned is next in line. No orange peel shell but with crimped beds, pre serial badge and cob hoops. I think the the second drum that I mentioned is what I consider the first generation since it is cataloged and was certainly made in production. I am fortunate to own all three of the versions and a couple different versions of the second one (different muffler/strainer locations). I think that I have seen 3 of the Imperial models and 3 or 4 of the crimped bed models. Neat stuff!

Excellent again! Thanks Mike! And thanks again to the OP that started it all.