Old 11-18-2022, 07:16 PM
#21
slingerfan slingerfan is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Acrolite drum set and Slingerland copied them
Quote:
Originally Posted by thin shell View Post
This bass drum has the earlier claws with the later modern T handles that would have gone with the new claws
What you are calling 'later modern T handles' (streamlined or torpedo style) first appeared at the end of '57. There were two slightly different versions. This is where some better, more detailed pictures would be helpful.

Last edited by slingerfan; 11-18-2022 at 07:56 PM. Reason: spelling
Old 11-20-2022, 02:23 PM
#22
K.O. K.O. is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Acrolite drum set and Slingerland copied them
Slingerland copied Ludwig's crimped plastic head design too. Ludwig took them to court but lost that one too as it was decided that Ludwig's design was "prior art" meaning they weren't the first to use a similar design. There was certainly no love lost between the two crosstown rivals.

Who came up with the new shell design (Slingerland 5 ply and Ludwig's 6 ply) first? Well, actually Gretsch did, but which of the Chicago titans was first?

As far as the metal drums they are very cool but I'm not sure you could ever prove anything one way or the other short of some sort of factory paperwork or other definitive corroboration.
Old 11-20-2022, 03:02 PM
#23
slingerfan slingerfan is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Acrolite drum set and Slingerland copied them
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Originally Posted by K.O. View Post
Who came up with the new shell design (Slingerland 5 ply and Ludwig's 6 ply) first? Well, actually Gretsch did, but which of the Chicago titans was first?
Slingerland introduced their 5-ply shell in 1972 per Dr. Wenk:
https://www.vintagedrumguide.com/drc...3_shells3.html

Ludwig 3-ply to 6-ply transition occurs in about the 1977 timeframe per Rick Gier's Ludwig serial number dating guide and includes a caveat that the timeframe may be refined with further data gathering.
Old 11-20-2022, 05:52 PM
#24
thin shell thin shell is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Acrolite drum set and Slingerland copied them
Quote:
Originally Posted by K.O. View Post
Slingerland copied Ludwig's crimped plastic head design too. Ludwig took them to court but lost that one too as it was decided that Ludwig's design was "prior art" meaning they weren't the first to use a similar design. There was certainly no love lost between the two crosstown rivals.

Who came up with the new shell design (Slingerland 5 ply and Ludwig's 6 ply) first? Well, actually Gretsch did, but which of the Chicago titans was first?

As far as the metal drums they are very cool but I'm not sure you could ever prove anything one way or the other short of some sort of factory paperwork or other definitive corroboration.

Did Gretsch really come up with it or was it Jasper wood products? I know that Keller sells drum shells as long tubes and were marketed for all kinds of things other than for use in drums such as for architectural elements and furniture so it is possible that Jasper did the same and Gretsch just decided to use Jasper as their source for cylinders of wood to make into drum shells. When Jasper went under, they went to the other manufacturer of wood cylinders. Rogers used Keller so they can't really take the credit either I suppose.



As far as the aluminum shell drum sets, there may never be a definitive piece of documentation proving either one's provenance. However, in the art world, unsigned art is often determined to be most likely from the hand of any given artist based on an overall evaluation of characteristics present in the unsigned work. Enough similarities to an artist's known style and quirks ends up with an assignment to that artist. This is usually good enough for the art to command the prices as if it it had been signed. Sometimes they are proven wrong though...



As I have stated earlier, the construction of the gold kit is exactly the same as the early grained finish Slingerland and Leedy badged drums. Not just close. Exact. The aluminum Ludwig kit exhibits the same construction that they used on their first gen and "prototype" Acrolites. Those would be check marks toward having been made by these two companies.



As to when these were made, that is up in the air for sure. The more I look at the Ludwigs, I notice that all of the hardware is later than early 60s. The tom mounts have the larger thread on the eye bolts, it has the large cup washers for the lugs and has a chrome diamond plate on the bass drum and plastic handled curved spur brackets. These could have all be changed at some point or it could also be that they were made much later. Perhaps as prototypes when Ludwig was considering metal for drum shells that would eventually lead to the stainless steel drums. They already had a formula for construction so they could have had them made up as a test and ultimately ended up going with Stainless. The construction method would be much cheaper than having shells spun or rolled and seam welded with angled bent edges. Who knows, they might have made a stainless kit with the same construction method. No telling at this point, but discovering the source of unknown objects always starts with "conjecture and guesstimates", or a better term would be varying hypotheses.

Last edited by thin shell; 11-20-2022 at 05:55 PM.
Old 11-21-2022, 11:49 AM
#25
slingerfan slingerfan is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Acrolite drum set and Slingerland copied them
/// Agreed. \\\
Old 11-22-2022, 05:22 PM
#26
jbohan6 jbohan6 is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Acrolite drum set and Slingerland copied them
I am so eager to see more photos of the brass slingerland set.
My opinion (and it is only that) is that the combination of parts and hardware present is unlikely but not impossible. The setting of the bass spurs does seem off - but I do wonder if the rail mount is perhaps in an odd place and makes the spurs look out of place?
It’s difficult to tell what’s going on with these sets. They are very intriguing and I would love to see more photos of these kits and hear them played. I first saw the slingerland brass photos that are the same seen here on Hawthorne Drum shop’s instagram page, last week.
Thanks for posting -
Old 11-22-2022, 07:48 PM
#27
thin shell thin shell is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Acrolite drum set and Slingerland copied them
just to be clear, those "slingerland" drums are not brass. They are aluminum with a gold dyed anodized finish.
Old 11-22-2022, 07:53 PM
#28
jbohan6 jbohan6 is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Acrolite drum set and Slingerland copied them
Ah, understood. Hope to see more photos soon!
Old 11-27-2022, 10:09 PM
#29
K.O. K.O. is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Acrolite drum set and Slingerland copied them
Quote:
Originally Posted by thin shell View Post
Did Gretsch really come up with it or was it Jasper wood products? I know that Keller sells drum shells as long tubes and were marketed for all kinds of things other than for use in drums such as for architectural elements and furniture so it is possible that Jasper did the same and Gretsch just decided to use Jasper as their source for cylinders of wood to make into drum shells. When Jasper went under, they went to the other manufacturer of wood cylinders. Rogers used Keller so they can't really take the credit either I suppose.
.
As I understand it Gretsch came up with the staggered seam shell back in the late 1920s. By staggering the placement of the seams (as opposed to having one large seam, via a scarf joint for all the plies) the shell was able to retain its round shape without the use of reinforcing rings. I guess I can't say conclusively that this was "invented" by Gretsch or that they were the very first to use such a design to make drums but they do appear to be the first of the major manufacturers to use this type of shell. Their 3 ply maple/poplar shells, made in-house by Gretsch, used this type of design. In the 1950s they began to experiment with having additional plies for greater strength. Jasper, who was already supplying some pre-made wooden guitar items, was subcontracted to produce the new 6 ply shell design. It's not quite clear, at least within the information I've read, whether Gretsch or Jasper were the ones to develop the 6 ply shell ie: whether Gretsch said here's a six ply shell design we want you to make for us, or if Jasper said here's a six ply shell we can make for you. Either way by the late 50s Gretsch was getting their thin staggered seam shells from Jasper (and now Keller).
 

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