Old 10-03-2022, 12:47 PM
#11
Marty Black Marty Black is offline
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Default Re: Is this a Ludwig Pioneer?
Yeah, no way it's a pre-serial number snare. The throw-off is late 1968 to early '70s, the muffler is 1968+, and a pre-serial number snare would have COB hoops. The bottom hoop in the photo is COS. Also, the clear lacquer interior indicates 1968+.

During the 1969 transition from the keystone badge to the blue & olive badge, I suppose there could've been a temporary shortage of badges, resulting in drums being assembled without a badge, but I think that's unlikely, and that would be a hard sell to a collector.

A repro badge, a new badge, or a salvaged badge - when installed, will be easily spotted by a knowledgeable collector. But if you only want a player's snare, I'm confident that this drum will be just fine....it's just not what the seller claims it to be. If you can get it cheap, go for it!

Regards, mb
Old 10-04-2022, 07:29 PM
#12
Marty Black Marty Black is offline
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Default Re: Is this a Ludwig Pioneer?
For what it's worth, the most likely scenario for the loss of the Ludwig badge is this: The first type of blue & olive badge had pointed corners on a parallelogram shape. This was the badge in use during the 1968 - into the 1970s - timeframe when that drum was manufactured.

Unfortunately, the pointed corners could easily snag on something and bend outward. There was no way to bend the badge back in shape. The easiest solution, for a non-collector, was to take a pair of pliers and pull the badge off the grommet.

Later in production, the pointed corners were replaced by rounded corners in an attempt to eliminate this problem.

Regards, mb
Old 10-04-2022, 10:55 PM
#13
O-Lugs O-Lugs is offline
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Default Re: Is this a Ludwig Pioneer?
Yep. Marty speaks the truth. I've seen many a pointy B/O badge that has been bent, "torn" or removed altogether -usually along with the grommet.The dang things could really stab a guy if he wasn't careful!

I know there are badges on Ebay every so often...Ludwig might even sell new ones that would work...nt sure, but maybe worth checking....and I think the correct grommets are available....So, if a rainy day came along and you were so inclined, it wouldn't be all that much trouble to replace a badge. -I mean, IF it's a drum that you deem worthy. Otherwise, yeah, just play it.
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Old 10-05-2022, 05:14 AM
#14
MPC MPC is offline
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Default Re: Is this a Ludwig Pioneer?
How much $$ is seller asking?
Old 10-05-2022, 10:05 AM
#15
slingerfan slingerfan is offline
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Default Re: Is this a Ludwig Pioneer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Black View Post

During the 1969 transition from the keystone badge to the blue & olive badge, I suppose there could've been a temporary shortage of badges, resulting in drums being assembled without a badge,
There is no evidence that this ever occurred.
Old 10-05-2022, 10:17 AM
#16
slingerfan slingerfan is offline
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Default Re: Is this a Ludwig Pioneer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Black View Post

A repro badge, a new badge, or a salvaged badge - when installed, will be easily spotted by a knowledgeable collector.
Unfortunately, some repro blue/olive badges have become extremely accurate (even including serial numbers) and can be very difficult to identify as non-original. Salvaged badges, when properly installed can be even more difficult to spot.
Old 10-07-2022, 03:58 PM
#17
KCDrumDad KCDrumDad is offline
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Default Re: Is this a Ludwig Pioneer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by slingerfan View Post
There is no evidence that this ever occurred.
Rob Cook wrote about the non-badged drums on page 210 of "The Ludwig Book." He has a parenthetical note: "(A few drums were made between the keystone and B&O badges which were fitted with no badge at all, just a grommet on the air vent.)"

I have not encountered one of these drums myself.
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Collecting information about the following for ongoing research projects:
Gretsch drums with serial numbers,
Ludwig Keystone and B/O badge drums with serial numbers and date stamps,
Ludwig Standards from 1968-73, and
Ludwigs with paper labels from 1971-72
www.GretschDrumDatingGuide.com
Old 10-08-2022, 04:10 PM
#18
slingerfan slingerfan is offline
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Default Re: Is this a Ludwig Pioneer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDrumDad View Post
Rob Cook wrote about the non-badged drums on page 210 of "The Ludwig Book." He has a parenthetical note: "(A few drums were made between the keystone and B&O badges which were fitted with no badge at all, just a grommet on the air vent.)"

I have not encountered one of these drums myself.
Legend and lore? .....until you document one (LOL).
Old 10-08-2022, 05:02 PM
#19
O-Lugs O-Lugs is offline
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Default Re: Is this a Ludwig Pioneer?
I was looking at that grommet....If it was a late keystone badge -'68-very early '70, then it would have the brass color to match the brass badge....right? And, if it was a B/O badge, then it would have the aluminum grommet....right? The grommet on the drum in question, appears to be brass...does it not? So, IF there is the possibility that there were some drums that were sent out with just the grommet during that window, then this could be an example of that. I've never heard that story anywhere before, but Ludwig had periods of ...let's call them..."inconsistencies"...heh heh

Upon reflection, I feel that, if the badge had been torn off the drum, then there would be more damage to the grommet or to the wrap around that area. The grommet in question doesn't look too bad. Granted, the pics are not great, but...I dunno...

There should be a date stamp in the shell...but not always...another inconsistency. If there is a stamp date and it's in the 1968 to very early 70 range, and we could see some clear pics of that badge area that would indicate no damage, then what other explanation could there be?
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Old 10-08-2022, 07:28 PM
#20
slingerfan slingerfan is offline
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Default Re: Is this a Ludwig Pioneer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-Lugs View Post
The grommet on the drum in question, appears to be brass...does it not?
Appears to be rusty to me. Bottom line: There is insufficient information/pictures to make any sort of proclamation about that grommet and lack of badge.
 

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