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When does it become a "players" drum?

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From The Ploughman

Putting a Pearl style tom mounting system on any American vintage drum is criminal and status of such drums are below player grade in both appearance and value. These swiss cheese drums are essentially "parts" drums, justifiable to be cannibalized as necessary. If rarity justifies the effort, a quality restoration may be an option with some loss in value in comparison to higher grade drums.

Could not disagree more. There is no such thing as a parts drum vs players drum in this context. If the drum is playable and not collector grade, it's a players drum, period. What makes it a players drum is that someone is willing to play it. I know lots and lots and lots of people, especially the younger among us, who could not care less that the L-Arm on their Slingerland is a Pearl. They care that the drum can be played and nothing more. And no it's not criminal do that, not at all. What it is, is practical.

Georgia Phil Custom Drumworks
https://www.GeorgiaPhil.com

Drum Wrap, Drum Heads, Drum Accessories
https://www.StuffForDrummers.com
Posted on 11 years ago
#11
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Just a thought... Ringo was known to use a Rogers tom mount on his Ludwig kit. I would imagine that was immitated (SP?) a few times. Would a 60s Ludwig kit in BOP and good condition be "devalued" because somebody at some point in time did what Ringo did??

Just thinking out-loud, guys...

The kit I did the most road work with was an early 70s (B/O badges, clear interior) Rock Duo set in Champagne sparkle. Because I didn't like the hoop-mount hihat bracket Ludwig had available at the time, I "drilled" a standard tom mounting bracket on my left BD to mount the hihat stand. Original Ludwig part, used in a logical way... would that have "devalued" the kit? (Don't worry, those drums were lost in 1978 in an auto accident.)

IMO, no...

Bill

Bill
Cherryvale, Ks
"Redrums - Ks" on FB and Reverb
(also "billnvick" on eBay)
Posted on 11 years ago
#12
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From thornbeck

Ok, let's look at extra/unoriginal holes in a drum shell. How much ($) would it affect the value? Remember, some music stores were actually responsible for installing accessories.I just picked up a 50's 3-ply 22" Gretsch bass drum. The drum wrap is unscratched, shinny, tight to the shell, the bearing edges are in very good condition and it has the original hoops with original inlay. It was never drilled for a rail consolette, so someone installed a cheap aftermarket tom mount dead center in place of the diamond cymbal mount. How much of a $ mistake did this person make back in the 70's? Personally, I'm not concerned with the holes, but I am going to plug them, patch the wrap and install another diamond cymbal mount.-Tim

Depends on the finish....

Blue Sparkle..1 price

Caddy Green or Copper Mist...another price....

"Always make sure your front bottom BD lugs clear the ground!"
Posted on 11 years ago
#13
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In the late 80's,I bought a 6 ply 18" Grestch BD in Red Sparkle for $75 from a guy because it had a Ludwig 70's Double tom holder blasted into it...

Luckily,I had the 12 and 14 already in RS!..

Kit is kicking around NY somewhere at jam sessions I have heard through the grapevine.....

From thornbeck

When it comes to drilling, would you pass on a 50's Gretsch 3-ply 18" bass drum with holes for a center post mount? ;-)So do extra holes mean a complete pass or does it mean priced accordingly?-Tim

"Always make sure your front bottom BD lugs clear the ground!"
Posted on 11 years ago
#14
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From blairndrums

Depends on the finish....Blue Sparkle..1 priceCaddy Green or Copper Mist...another price....

OK, that makes sense. Just one of the many variables.

The bass drum I picked up is Red Sparkle. So probably on par with the Blue Sparkle pricing. ;)

[LIST]

[*]What size is the shell? - 22"

[*]What finish is on the shell? - Red Sparkle

[*]What is the condition of the finish? - Very good to excellent

[*]Who was the maker of the shell? - Gretsch

[*]Is the badge original and unaltered? - Yes

[*]How many plys make up the shell? - 3 ply

[*]What is the condition of the hardware? - Very minor pin sized pitting

[*]Does it have the original hoops? - Yes

[*]Do the hoops have the original inlay? - Yes

[*]Are there extra holes drilled into the shell? - Yes, directly over top the removed Gretsch diamond mount. Four small holes ~3/16" and one hole less than 1/2" (would be covered up by installing original diamond mount)

[/LIST]

This drum really looks like it had been sitting in a back storage room for a large portion of it's life. As I mentioned in another thread, it was never drilled for a rail consolette, so someone decided to install an aftermarket tom mount. Probably happened in the mid/late 70's.

Because of the holes, I know it's not a collector's grade drum. If I were to sell it, I would price it accordingly. I'd give it a range of $175 to $225 based on the sale of other Gretsch 3 ply bass drums. Until then, it's going to make an awesome players drum. Now I need a floor tom to make a 22/16/14-snare combo. Finding orphan drums can become really expensive. :mad: I've also started a thread in the Wanted section for the parts to finish this drum.

-Tim

Posted on 11 years ago
#15
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It becomes a "players" kit, as opposed to a "collectors" kit somewhere between four and five scratches. :-)

My kit:
Ludwig Vistalite Big Beat set consisting of:
14” X 22” bass, 16” X 16” floor tom, 8” X 12” ride tom, 9” X 13” ride tom, 5” X 14” snare
Ludwig 201 Speed King bass drum pedal
Ludwig 1124 Spur-lok hit-hat with Ludwig Standard Paiste 14” cymbals (760 & 770 gr) with ching-ring
Two Ludwig Standard S-270 cymbals stands
18” Zildjian crash cymbal (1550 gr) and 20” Zildjian ride cymbal (2130 gr) with CAMCO sizzler
Gibraltar motorcycle seat-style drum throne with backrest
Posted on 11 years ago
#16
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Great topic!

On my Slingy's they became players early on. Signs of at least three different tom mounts drilled before I had Pearl mounts put on 35+ years ago.

I like that they have been played and updated as new technology came along.

Putting them back to former glory but the Pearl mounts will stay because they work well. Vintage tom hardware tends to not be as stable.

In the wild finds of untouched kits are very cool but they just sat somewhere collecting dust for years. Not the same feel as a kit that has many stories to tell.

Creighton

Nothing special here but I like them.
Posted on 11 years ago
#17
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From The Ploughman

Putting a Pearl style tom mounting system on any American vintage drum is criminal and status of such drums are below player grade in both appearance and value. These swiss cheese drums are essentially "parts" drums, justifiable to be cannibalized as necessary. If rarity justifies the effort, a quality restoration may be an option with some loss in value in comparison to higher grade drums.

From MutantMozart

Could not disagree more. There is no such thing as a parts drum vs players drum in this context. If the drum is playable and not collector grade, it's a players drum, period. What makes it a players drum is that someone is willing to play it. I know lots and lots and lots of people, especially the younger among us, who could not care less that the L-Arm on their Slingerland is a Pearl. They care that the drum can be played and nothing more. And no it's not criminal do that, not at all. What it is, is practical.

From Creighton

Great topic!On my Slingy's they became players early on. Signs of at least three different tom mounts drilled before I had Pearl mounts put on 35+ years ago.I like that they have been played and updated as new technology came along.Putting them back to former glory but the Pearl mounts will stay because they work well. Vintage tom hardware tends to not be as stable.In the wild finds of untouched kits are very cool but they just sat somewhere collecting dust for years. Not the same feel as a kit that has many stories to tell.Creighton

I couldn't pass up on commenting on the Pearl or Pearl-style mounts. I assume we're talking about what Pearl introduced in the late 70s: the 7/8" tube style, as opposed to their hex-sided drum-key style of mount they used throughout most of the 70s.

My first encounter with the new Pearl mounts came at Hays Music in Hays, Ks in 1978. (I've told this story before, so please be patient.) My group, the Fall River Boys, played as much as we wanted throughout Western Kansas and Western Nebraska. We were in pretty high demand and stayed booked solid. Very early one Sunday morning, returning to Hays from Tribune, Ks we made the decision to not unload the van because we were too tired, leaving it set in the street. Late that night/early the next morning, somebody boozed/drugged up came flying down the street and totaled the van, and most of the equipment inside.

The driver's insurance replaced everything -- but we were so booked up we had to have new equipment before the next weekend. All that Hays Music had in stock at the time was Pearl wood-fiberglass drums, a red set and a blue set. My wife like the blue, so blue it was. The first thing that impressed me about them was the tom mounts -- I thought they were the greatest improvement I had seen on drums since I had been drumming. They were MUCH sturdier and much more adjustable than anything I had seen before -- much better than the standard Ludwig mount.

So... I for one don't blame anyone for changing out mounts, especially during that time period. And, ever since most companies have copied that mount anyway!

Yes, changing mounts "de-values" the "collector" kits. But NOT below "players" grade, IMO.

BTW -- talk about players kits... my first kit was a Gretsch kit out of the early 50s. It had hoop mount spurs and a rail mount tom holder. I thought both looked too "old fashioned," and what I really wanted was a Ludwig kit anyway (too good a deal on the Gretsch to pass up!). So, I added the new Ludwig curved spurs, and a Ludwig Standard tom mount! Now, if I knew then what I know now, I would have never done that nor would I have ever sold that kit! However, all I was at that time was a "player," needing a "player's kit."

Bill

Bill
Cherryvale, Ks
"Redrums - Ks" on FB and Reverb
(also "billnvick" on eBay)
Posted on 11 years ago
#18
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From billnvick

So... I for one don't blame anyone for changing out mounts, especially during that time period. And, ever since most companies have copied that mount anyway!Yes, changing mounts "de-values" the "collector" kits. But NOT below "players" grade, IMO.BTW -- talk about players kits... my first kit was a Gretsch kit out of the early 50s. It had hoop mount spurs and a rail mount tom holder. I thought both looked too "old fashioned," and what I really wanted was a Ludwig kit anyway (too good a deal on the Gretsch to pass up!). So, I added the new Ludwig curved spurs, and a Ludwig Standard tom mount! Now, if I knew then what I know now, I would have never done that nor would I have ever sold that kit! However, all I was at that time was a "player," needing a "player's kit."Bill

Thanks for your insight. At the time (50's and 60's), drums were just instruments and didn't really become collectable until the mid to late 80's. Prior to this time, I've read threads that these kits could be purchased for $150 or less. Huge kits with power sized toms, which completely blocked out the drummer, were all the craze. Think about the cars during the 1970's. 65' Mustangs and 67' Camaros could be purchased for around $500. So many of these drum kits were modified to correct some of the short comings with the original hardware. For example, everyone knows what happens to a worn out and tired rail consolette. Either the tom is constantly falling onto the bass drum or the bolts weaken and snap from constant loosening and unloosening. "Where did I put that hex wrench?" ;) At the time, why spend the money on an exact replacement part when you could get a brand new, in stock aftermarket part that was sturdier and gives you the option of adding a second tom?

In no way am I discrediting the "collectors" and "collector's kits". I'm sure we would all love to have one. I'm with Bill and others that have expressed their opinions on the "players" kits. They were instruments first and collectables second. There's a time and place for both. Also remember, if it weren't for the basket case, lost cause drums, where would we get parts?

-Tim

Posted on 11 years ago
#19
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From thornbeck

Thanks for your insight. At the time (50's and 60's), drums were just instruments and didn't really become collectable until the mid to late 80's. Prior to this time, I've read threads that these kits could be purchased for $150 or less. Huge kits with power sized toms, which completely blocked out the drummer, were all the craze. Think about the cars during the 1970's. 65' Mustangs and 67' Camaros could be purchased for around $500. So many of these drum kits were modified to correct some of the short comings with the original hardware. For example, everyone knows what happens to a worn out and tired rail consolette. Either the tom is constantly falling onto the bass drum or the bolts weaken and snap from constant loosening and unloosening. "Where did I put that hex wrench?" ;) At the time, why spend the money on an exact replacement part when you could get a brand new, in stock aftermarket part that was sturdier and gives you the option of adding a second tom?In no way am I discrediting the "collectors" and "collector's kits". I'm sure we would all love to have one. I'm with Bill and others that have expressed their opinions on the "players" kits. They were instruments first and collectables second. There's a time and place for both. Also remember, if it weren't for the basket case, lost cause drums, where would we get parts?-Tim

Tim, you are right on concerning the prices of those kits back then. That Gretsch kit that I bought in '70 or '71 cost me less than $300 (don't remember the exact price!)!! It had a 14x20 BD, 9x13 tom, and a 6 1/2x14 SD. 19" KZildjian ride cymbal, 13" KZildjian hihats (the OLD ones from Turkey) all the original stands and hardware, wood block, cowbell, etc. as well as a throne and hard fiber cases! WMP that had mellowed nicely. Other than the mellowing of the wrap, these were practically mint! Can you imagine what that kit in that condition would bring today?

Yes, and the cars! In 1974 I bought a 1968 Chevy Malibu SS 2-door hardtop with the 307 (??) V-8 for $500. Sold it for $500 a couple of years later. About 10 years ago, with one of my sons crazy over muscle cars... well, he just had a hard time understanding why I even sold that car in the first place!

This has been a GOOD thread. Thanks!

Bill

Bill
Cherryvale, Ks
"Redrums - Ks" on FB and Reverb
(also "billnvick" on eBay)
Posted on 11 years ago
#20
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