I picked up an 8 lug snare in white marine pearl off Craigslist. I found a date stamp on it. It's a 57.
Questions???
Is this a three ply drum? It's missing two lug screws and I'm thinking of buying them through eBay or reverb.
Is the throw off replaced? It's a 60's throw off? Also has Ludwig snares
Is this a jazz festival? Or are those only 60's 8 lug drums?
What makes a wfl a super classic? A 6.5 inch depth?
Has the bottom hoop been replaced?
Thank you everybody!!!
Hi vintagerules!
Yes, it's a 3-ply drum... mahogany/poplar/mahogany
Missing two lugs screws? Do you mean the actual screws that hold the lug to the shell, or are you referring to the tension rods?
The P-83 throw-off looks original.
Technically, you have the "Barrett Deems" snare drum, which came with a 5.5" deep shell. The Jazz Festival, introduced around 1960, called for a 5" deep shell, but there have been many early Jazz Festivals with the 5.5" shell. This is what Ringo had!
The Super classic is essentially the same drum, but with the Classic strainer (P-87). Both drums were offered in two different depths.
Hope this helps!
-Mark
Slight additions to the above:
The bottom rim looks to me like it came from a different drum. I'm not sure whether that would be a Ludwig or not. If it is a Ludwig it might be a Super Sensitive or perhaps one with a Classic (P-87) strainer. My experience is with Jazz Festivals and the bottom rims from that era have a drop snare gate like this:
[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2017/Drop-gate-rim.png[/img]
After the drop gate era a production simplification was introduced and the rim goes across for most snare models. The ones with "special and different" snare mechanisms like Super Sensitive have different length (longer) snare wires and a different look to the snare gate...much like yours with something riveted on. Maybe the P-87 does too, I don't know. Hopefully somebody else will be able to say for sure.
If the shell has a date stamp of 1957 then the P-83 and P-32 butt which say Ludwig are a bit later. It's possible that the shell sat on the shelf waiting for a couple of years until it was fully assembled, and the hardware which was used was from the early 1960s. That is, unless the bottom rim is suggesting that it used to have some other snare mechanism and at the time it was converted the hardware was replaced with strainer and butt saying Ludwig.
If the snare strainer or butt has been replaced there might be extra holes visible so that's something to check out.
I have a similar drum, but black/gold Duco, not wrapped. Wonderful drums they are; inherently great sounding, IMO, and thanks to Sir Starkey, the sound of rock and pop.
First question relevant to my interests: how do you know it's a '57? I suspect mine is a '59, but there are no date markings, I just researched William F. Ludwig's company history and the hardware and so forth and that seems the most likely date.
Mine has the P83 strainer and butt with "WFL" inside a keystone shield, not a "Ludwig" script, so either my drum is earlier than I thought, your drum is later than you think, your drum has a parts bin badge, replaced butt and throw-off or something.
Also, I call mine a "Barrett Deems," but earlier they went by the name "Swingster," which is a cool name too. To laypeople I call it my "Ringo snare."
Pretty sure that bottom hoop is not original, with the folded back riveted flaps. Never seen that on any Ludwig snare hoop. Give your hoops the magnet test. Both of mine are COB (chrome over brass), which I believe contributes to the signature sound of my "Ringo snare."
If I had to choose a single snare, it would be my Acrolite, but the Deems would be in hot pursuit, and if it were one metal, one wood, or choose 2, no contest.
I think that the saying "every drummer needs an Acrolite" also has "every drummer also needs a re-ring Jazz Festival" along with it, so welcome to the club!
-Erik
______
Early '70's Slingerland New Rock #50 in blue agate (20-16-13-12)
Late '50's WFL Swingster/Barrett Deems in black/gold Duco
'70's Slingerland Gene Krupa Sound King COB
early '70's Ludwig Acrolite
'80's Ludwig Rocker II 6 1/2" snare
Rogers Supreme Big "R" hi hat
I have a similar drum, but black/gold Duco, not wrapped. Wonderful drums they are; inherently great sounding, IMO, and thanks to Sir Starkey, the sound of rock and pop.First question relevant to my interests: how do you know it's a '57? I suspect mine is a '59, but there are no date markings, I just researched William F. Ludwig's company history and the hardware and so forth and that seems the most likely date.
The OP said
I found a date stamp on it. It's a 57.
and yes the hardware which says Ludwig comes after the WFL hardware. I've got a few pre serial drums which are from 1959ish to November 1963 (based on date stamps) and the strainers and butts were changing over during the early 60s. All I can say is that the change did not happen overnight or on December 31st of one particular year.
As far as the hoops and magnets go, if they are before the changeover to steel hoops (which also didn't happen overnight) then a magnet won't stick to brass the same way it does to steel. You can compare the stronger pull from a tension bolt (steel) with the weaker pull from a lug (pot metal) versus your two hoops. But I don't see that this test will shed any light unless the bottom hoop tests out as steel. If the bottom hoop tests out as steel then it might be a later one (but still Ludwig), or just non Ludwig. But what will we learn if the bottom hoop test out as brass?
Hi vintagerules!Yes, it's a 3-ply drum... mahogany/poplar/mahoganyMissing two lugs screws? Do you mean the actual screws that hold the lug to the shell, or are you referring to the tension rods?The P-83 throw-off looks original.Technically, you have the "Barrett Deems" snare drum, which came with a 5.5" deep shell. The Jazz Festival, introduced around 1960, called for a 5" deep shell, but there have been many early Jazz Festivals with the 5.5" shell. This is what Ringo had!The Super classic is essentially the same drum, but with the Classic strainer (P-87). Both drums were offered in two different depths. Hope this helps!-Mark
Thanks Mark! 3 ply it is! I'm missing (2) of the screws that hold the lug to the shell. I have all the tensions rods. I'm contemplating making a trip to my local Ace store so I can secure the lugs and jam!!! Although I'd like this drum to be original-ish. The nuts that hold the p-83 strainer look newer and out off place with the rest of the internal hardware so maybe this did have the p-87 strainer at one point!?
Stay tuned for more pictures Party
Slight additions to the above:The bottom rim looks to me like it came from a different drum. I'm not sure whether that would be a Ludwig or not. If it is a Ludwig it might be a Super Sensitive or perhaps one with a Classic (P-87) strainer. My experience is with Jazz Festivals and the bottom rims from that era have a drop snare gate like this:[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2017/Drop-gate-rim.png[/img]After the drop gate era a production simplification was introduced and the rim goes across for most snare models. The ones with "special and different" snare mechanisms like Super Sensitive have different length (longer) snare wires and a different look to the snare gate...much like yours with something riveted on. Maybe the P-87 does too, I don't know. Hopefully somebody else will be able to say for sure. If the shell has a date stamp of 1957 then the P-83 and P-32 butt which say Ludwig are a bit later. It's possible that the shell sat on the shelf waiting for a couple of years until it was fully assembled, and the hardware which was used was from the early 1960s. That is, unless the bottom rim is suggesting that it used to have some other snare mechanism and at the time it was converted the hardware was replaced with strainer and butt saying Ludwig. If the snare strainer or butt has been replaced there might be extra holes visible so that's something to check out.
Hi Zenstat! Thanks for your response!
No extra holes I can see. The butt plate is a wfl logo inside a Keystone and the strainer/throw off is ludwig p-83 I just learned. I may have found the make of the bottom rim/hoop. Is it a slingerland radio king snare gate?
here's the webpage of my research. (Ctrl+F) the word rivets
http://www.coopersvintagedrums.com/hoops,mounts,pedals,etc.htm
Thanks again!
Stay tuned for more pictures Party
I have a similar drum, but black/gold Duco, not wrapped. Wonderful drums they are; inherently great sounding, IMO, and thanks to Sir Starkey, the sound of rock and pop.First question relevant to my interests: how do you know it's a '57? I suspect mine is a '59, but there are no date markings, I just researched William F. Ludwig's company history and the hardware and so forth and that seems the most likely date.Mine has the P83 strainer and butt with "WFL" inside a keystone shield, not a "Ludwig" script, so either my drum is earlier than I thought, your drum is later than you think, your drum has a parts bin badge, replaced butt and throw-off or something.Also, I call mine a "Barrett Deems," but earlier they went by the name "Swingster," which is a cool name too. To laypeople I call it my "Ringo snare."Pretty sure that bottom hoop is not original, with the folded back riveted flaps. Never seen that on any Ludwig snare hoop. Give your hoops the magnet test. Both of mine are COB (chrome over brass), which I believe contributes to the signature sound of my "Ringo snare."If I had to choose a single snare, it would be my Acrolite, but the Deems would be in hot pursuit, and if it were one metal, one wood, or choose 2, no contest.I think that the saying "every drummer needs an Acrolite" also has "every drummer also needs a re-ring Jazz Festival" along with it, so welcome to the club!
Hi Starship Krupa!
According to this webpage http://www.vintagedrumguide.com/ludwig_badges.html
this badge was used from 55-59. I'm taking pictures of the date stamp ASAP.
I magnet tested everything! The only parts that don't stick to the magnet (non-magnetic) are both rims/hoops. The parts that stick (are magnetic) are the lugs, strainer, butt-plate, tension rods, snare wires. To my understanding Ferrous metals contain iron and are magnetic. while non-ferrous metals are non-magnetic. The rims could be made of brass, alumium, nickel? I'm not sure.
thanks again
Stay tuned for more pictures Party
Hi Zenstat! Thanks for your response!No extra holes I can see. The butt plate is a wfl logo inside a Keystone and the strainer/throw off is ludwig p-83 I just learned. I may have found the make of the bottom rim/hoop. Is it a slingerland radio king snare gate? here's the webpage of my research. (Ctrl+F) the word rivetshttp://www.coopersvintagedrums.com/hoops,mounts,pedals,etc.htmThanks again!Stay tuned for more pictures Party
Ah. I was judging what was on the butt from the tiny amount visible in the photo. WFL it is then. That is a better fit for pre 1960.
Yes, apparently there are Slingerland snare gates which have rivets as shown on that site.
[img]http://www.coopersvintagedrums.com/hoops,mounts,pedals,etc_files/image126.jpg[/img]
The hoop could be from one of several manufacturers (W&A, Slingerland, Ludwig, etc) and I can't tell from the photo of yours how close a match it is to the Sligerland one in all aspects. And there might be another manufacturer which has a closer fit. Not really my area of expertise, which is why I was hoping somebody who really knows their hoops would comment. I've looked at Rob Cook's The Ludwig Book and it doesn't have enough detail in that area to tell what sort of hoops go with the P87 and/or the Super Sensitives from 1961 (when they came back into production after a hiatus).
If a magnet doesn't stick they are 99.99% likely to be chrome over brass (COB) because brass is what was used prior to the switch to steel. The magnet test doesn't uniquely identify the material, but the material being brass (rather than some other on ferrous material) comes from other historical knowledge.
Hoops would have been brass in that era. The rest of the hardware would be made of steel except the lugs which were (and still are) die-cast from zinc alloys. The throw off is a slightly newer style than would have been original to the drum.
My first snare drum, which I bought used in 1970 and which I still own, is a twin to your new acquisition. Also date stamped from 1957 in WMP with nickel plated hardware.
