How do you know its UFIP if there is no stamp? I'm guessing based on the cymbal size it's more likely mid/late forties. Cymbals of that size were not that common in the 30's. Do you know the weight? Also just curious. Was he a professional musician? Coming to the US near the start of the war in 1939 I would think he would have brought everything of value to him. Was the cymbal part of a set of drums he brought over?

well ive done a bit a research. One of thr links for reference I found

http://robscott.net/cymbals/italian-cymbals/

there is the Made in Italy stamp as i mentioned

no i do not know the weight

I've got two of the cymbals like the one you posted, and they have both the Pyramid Stamp and the MADE IN ITALY stamp. They are both 50 cm (the UFiP metric version of 20" which is slightly undersized). The bell shape and lathing and overhammering are quite similar.

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2012/ufip6.jpg[/img]

I've long thought they were 1950s but never actually pinned down a decade. The trouble is that Rob Scott hasn't collected up all the different stamps and eras and done any sort of timeline. And neither have I because I've been putting other work first. I've collected up stamp images and info as I've come across it against the day when I get to it.

I'm not sure if there are documented MADE IN ITALY die stamps (versus ink stamps) on non UFiP cymbals or not. Ink stamps yes, on cymbals like Tosco.

I also have a Pyramid stamp without the MADE IN ITALY die stamp. I presumed this was more like early 60s. It lacks the overhammering and doesn't show much visible hammering at all, has a bell without the very vertical sides, and looks quite different:

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2017/UFiP1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://black.net.nz/cym2017/UFiP2.png[/img]

Given your information I'm now less certain than I was before about my two overhammered ones being 50s. They could be 40s for all I know. And my assumption was that not having the Pyramid Stamp made my "60s" one later. But your cymbal is evidence that this isn't true. The presence/absence of the Pyramid stamp may not be just chronology at work. Same with the MADE IN ITALY stamp presence/absence. It might or might not be chronology.

You might get more info by emailing UFiP thought their web site. I know a few people have and they were happy to help.

Very interesting zenstat. I may have to ask around some old family members Im not in touch with anymore haha and see what else I can learn

The robscott site is what I found on my initial search but I will start digging deeper given your info posted here.

I will also try emailing UFiP and see what that turns up.

Will post my findings here if I get a reply and any other info I can dig up.

Thanks

The quest continues....

Stage Band2

Can I assume we are in agreement that it is very unlikely his grandfather brought it with him to the US in 1939?

Oh, I should have mentioned the weights of mine just to give some context.

20" with straight sided bell and overhammering: one 1725g and one 1675g

20" with sloping bell and little visible hammering: 1836g

The two lighter (older?) ones are also incredibly thin at the outer most inch. Seriously wafer thin. I don't know how they have survived all these years, but they have. The heavier one (1836g) isn't as strongly tapered at the edge.

I've really got no idea Mark. I got Luca Luciano's book Italian Vintage Drums and Cymbals (agenda, 2012) hoping to find out a bit more than is in Pinksterboer for this early era. About all it mentions about early cymbals which is informative in this context, is that metals were in short supply at the outbreak of WWII, and then

which are both generic things we've learned about WWII and cymbals. And the smaller sizes of cymbals before 1940 or so is another generic observation we've noted from Avedis Zildjian cymbal diameters of that time.

The next step would be to contact UFiP and ask them about what diameters they produced and what period the pyramid stamp represents.

You may be correct. im really not sure. Just from what i knew of family history, i knew him to be the owner of this cymbal and knew he immigrated here feom Italy in 1939. It was over 25 years ago when i was trying to gain info on the cymbal after gaining possession of it. It then sat in a case for probably 20+years.

About the metals scarcity - that doesn't happen from day to day and all over Europe. The cymbal could've been made earlier. The war oficially started in september 1939 by Germany attacking Poland, but I think Italy didn't join any actual fighting until spring of 1940, in France. And AFAIK, UFIP was quite state-subsidized in the fascist era. So it's not all so simple.